Destroy My Belief System, Please!

@cicerone imposter,

C.I., a valid idea cannot be illogical, but "truth" (a highly problematical concept) can, as in paradoxical truths.
But logic can never provide an ultimate test: Induction can never exhaust the empirical possibilities and the premises of Deduction are never "proven" just assumed.

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More frequent use of the words, "I really do not know, but my guess is..."...

...will result in more "truth" and "logic" than damn near anything else I've seen proposed.

When using those words, you will almost always be starting closer to a variant of "the truth" and "logic" than with any wording that does not pay respect to what those words convey.

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@cicerone imposter,

Don't get me wrong, I am a strong fan of logic. But not everybody is obliged to be... We would need to first establish who believes in logic, and then there is logic and logic.

E.g. I keep hearing on A2K that I am not "logical" or "rational", simply because I often use my intuition to get to a conclusion fast, without bothering to spell out the entire, detailed logic of the argument. I often find that my "most logical" contradictors focus on minute, trivial, irrelevant aspects of an argument, without seeing the big picture. It's just that they are analytic, while I am synthetic. We employ different logics, right brain vs left brain. They want all the t's crossed and the i's pointed, treating logic only as a procedural tool allowing to go from point A to point B in a carefully checked manner, while I value intuition, probability and flair as path-breakers.

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The words "believe in" ought to go the way of the dinosaur.

The words mean nothing...and are absurd.

If put into coherent form...the thought sinks of its own weight.

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Granted it's not a conscious or intentional methodological strategy. It can be an expression of aggressiveness and competiveness. And I agree that debate can be very constructive by helping us to refine the terms of our theorical perspectives. But I hope we all understand that one can "win" such competitions without being right. Debate is not a philosophical way to test the validity of ideas, even though it might serve to persuade observers of the relative value of competing ideas.

People who want to "win" the kinds of conversations that happen in Internet forums...are the least reliable, least productive conversations partners.

Their intent is not to discuss...but to win. They conceive of it as a win/lose undertaking...and proceed with that in mind. Points they make are not aimed at the issue being discussed...but at the "winning."

There are no winners in an Internet discussion, JL...only the delusion of winning by people who deem that an end to the exercise.

In order truly to establish a discussion of competing values and ideas...the notion that there will be A winner is a recipe for failure. If one can conceive that an exchange of ideas and values produces better understanding, I guess it can be said that everyone is a winner...society itself, in that instance, is a winner.

Olivier talks about winning a lot...and like so many others in these forums, he declares himself to be a winner from time to time.

While there are no winners...there may very well be losers. And people who declare themselves to be winners...are probably the losers.

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Good discussion going here.

Probably does nothing to destroy Thomas' belief system...but excellent nonetheless.

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@JLNobody,

You wrote,

Quote:

a valid idea cannot be illogical

, but "a valid idea" is subjective to the perceiver and therefore defeats your thesis.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Good discussion going here.

Thanks.

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@Olivier5,

If you know that you're being attacked on the,

Quote:

minute, trivial, irrelevant aspects of an argument,

then you have no problems. Those attacking you do. Why worry?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Good discussion going here.

Thanks.

You are welcome.

You always contribute to good discussions, Olivier...even if you view the discussions as a contest you will eventually claim to have won.

Not sure how any of this helps Thomas with his "belief system" though.

Do you think he might not really have been serious when he asked us to "destroy" it.

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@Frank Apisa,

We just went beyond the thread topic. Thomas has got plenty of feedback already, and he concluded that his system was robust enough.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

We just went beyond the thread topic. Thomas has got plenty of feedback already, and he concluded that his system was robust enough.

He and I (and Joe Nation) have had several beer drinking session together...and I can assure you that he does indeed have a VERY robust system. He can drink Joe and me under the table any night of the week.

But he has an unfair advantage. He is German!

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

If you know that you're being attacked on the,
Quote:
minute, trivial, irrelevant aspects of an argument,
then you have no problems. Those attacking you do. Why worry?

It would be a mistake for me to think that "I KNOW" their points are trivial. The devil does hide in details and an intuition is only a vague direction for more precise thinking. We have two brains for a reason. So their analysis at a detail level is useful. But some posters can be too fixated on a particular detail and fail to see alternative arguments.

It's like, you're an engineer and are asked if one can build a road from point A to point B (=an argument, a "logical proof). You say: "yes, through here", with a vague hand gesture (intuitive answer). Your colleague says "no, there's a precipice right here, so it won't do". So you take a harder look at the map and say: "well, the route can go here and there and avoid the precipice, so it's still doable I think." And the colleague says: "yes, but you were WRONG!..."

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@Olivier5,

"Wrong" needs to be explained on the reasons why. Just saying "it's wrong" is not a good response.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You always contribute to good discussions, Olivier...even if you view the discussions as a contest you will eventually claim to have won.

BTW, I never said that I view each and every discussion as a contest. I just said that, when a contest happens, it's perfectly possible that one of the contestant will win. It can be done.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
You always contribute to good discussions, Olivier...even if you view the discussions as a contest you will eventually claim to have won.

BTW, I never said that I view each and every discussion as a contest. I just said that, when a contest happens, it's perfectly possible that one of the contestant will win. It can be done.

Actually, you didn't say any of those things. Look it up...you'll see. But I understand and acknowledge what you are getting at.

I grant that if a contest happens (wonder who decides that)...one of the contestants MAY win. Some contests, as you infer, simply are not won...they are not decided.

I also will grant that it (winning or losing) can occur.

I do not think, however, that I have ever been in a contest with you...and if you have decided unilaterally that you want to declare any of our conversations to be a "contest" so that you can then declare yourself a "winner" of that contest...you do a disservice to conversation in general in a very self-serving manner.

In any case, there are many people in this forum (and others) who arbitrarily declare many of their conversations to be "contests"...and then arbitrarily declare themselves to be winners...and when that happens, I often, as I did in your case, mention that the habit of doing so is a hard one to break.

Insofar as I left the impression that I was suggesting you declare EVERY discussion to be a contest...I apologize. You definitely do not. I enjoy your contributions, Olivier...and I really wish we could get along a bit better.

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@Frank Apisa,

I did say that. You comprehension problems are yours to deal with.

Quote:

grant that if a contest happens (wonder who decides that)...one of the contestants MAY win.

An internet discussion can evolve into a dispute or contest the same way than "real life" discussions can. Nobody "decides" it, it's a group dynamic, even though each debater can decide to escalate or to tone down his own part.

Anyway, I suppose we agree then, that internet debates can be won.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I did say that. You comprehension problems are yours to deal with.

You did not say that...and there is nothing wrong with my comprehension skills. Give a link to where you said that if you did! (Don't bother looking, you will not find it, because you did not say that.)

Quote:

Quote:
grant that if a contest happens (wonder who decides that)...one of the contestants MAY win.

An internet discussion can evolve into as dispute or contest the same way that "real life" discussion can. Nobody "decides" it, it's a group dynamic, even though each debater can decide to escalate or to tone down his own part.

Anyway, I suppose we agree then, that internet debates can be won.

I think we agree on very little, Olivier...but this is now the third time I have extended my hand in an attempt to stop the pettiness. It will be the last time.

If you want unilaterally to characterize conversations as contests so that you can pretend you have "won" them...that is your right.

Me...I will just enjoy the laugh it generates.

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@Frank Apisa,

The pettiness is essentially yours, and you're welcome to stop it anytime you want.

Anyway, good to know we agree on the fact that internet debates can be won.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

The pettiness is essentially yours, and you're welcome to stop it anytime you want.

No, Olivier, the pettiness is yours. And I am enjoying you too much to stop watching you display it.

Quote:

Anyway, good to know we agree on the fact that internet debates can be won.

Internet debates can, in fact, be won. I've never suggested otherwise.

Let me know if you get into any.

I will enjoy watching you declare victory. Wink

By the way...I am still waiting for that link you will never be able to produce!

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Destroy My Belief System, Please!

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