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Can we really beat Al Queda and terrorism with brute force?

 
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:34 pm
Bush seems convinced that this is a military operation rather than a social one.

He seems convinced that the best way to change the region is with the military than with trying to win over the people in the region by quelling away ignorance.

The terrorists there portray us as an evil and imperialistic nation that wants to shove our values down their throat. And to a degree they are right.

But in our defence they really would be better off if they embraced freedom, democracy, capitalism, and secularism. History has proven this time and again.

The terrorists got there power by providing critical services to poor people who desperately needed them. They built hospitals, schools, and used them as a venue to further their islamic extremism. They do this inspite of corrupt govt officials that divert resources to themselves in order to build palaces (look at Saudi Arabia).

What little we give, we give to these very same corrupt govts eventhough we know they rarely reach those who need them. We could give them to the charities that do good work there, but we give the money to the governments instead. And we do this for our own political and economic gain. We do this for promises of oil rights in return, we do this to let american industries set up camp there, we do this out of self interest.

It's easy to see why the terrorists are more successful in spreading extremism and hate than we are of spreading truth, freedom, and compassion though our beliefs are more logical.

But by trying to kill all the terrorists, we're creating thousands more. By sending our armies into their region, we are giving credibility to the terrorists claim that we are the enemy, we are the hateful ones.

Wouldn't we benefit more if we spent our resources trying to educate the people there?

Wouldn't we benefit more if we spent money to teach the people there how to build roads, irrigation systems, sewage systems, and farms?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 627 • Replies: 14
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:36 pm
I think the best way to beat the terrorists is to try and verbally reason with their leaders, so the leaders of the terrorist groups will tell their followers to change their ways.
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:38 pm
The leaders are often people who are extremists, too filled with hate to listen to reason. We could more effictively convince the general populace.

Do you think you would have been able to convince Hitler that jews are alright no matter how much time you had with him?

And will any leader listen to us if we have armies in their lands and are killing their members?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:42 pm
We should send over the Jehovah's witnesses and mormons and let them do some door-to-door converting.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:43 pm
The terrorists hate us. There's no reasoning with them. The best thing to do is to get every country to outlaw terrorism.

I saw a short article on the news Sunday night about hundreds of tribesmen in Pakistan heading out to locate Al Qaeda operatives and bring them in. That's not the result of putting our soldiers into Pakistan and starting to kill people. That's the result of diplomacy. There is actually diplomacy going on worldwide, along with military action in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I think that will ultimately be the downfall of terrorism.
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:44 pm
Was that sarcasm McGentrix?

Why can't we fund some the development charities out there that teach people how to build irrigation systems, schools etc and thus help themselves.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:47 pm
Because they teach the children in their schools that Jews eat Muslim children. National leaders have to make that kind of indoctrination illegal along with building irrigation systems etc.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:47 pm
I completely agree, but it's a sticky situation. Let's not forget that Saddam was a friend of America in the '80s, during the war on Iran. Many dictaorships have been endorsed and supported by the USA over the years. Some were also toppled when they got out of hand. I'm not certain what Bush Jr. thinks, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's a "love me daddy" complex. "Look at me, I captured Saddam!" To even bother trying 'educating' Iraqi citizens would be an excersize in futility. The American government just can't understand a philosophy like Jihad. Their boys are trained to be in and out, with the thought of going home. They are not trained, philosophically, to die for a cause like radical Muslims are. Only time will tell.
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 01:54 pm
Do you disagree with the assessment that our recent actions are creating more terrorists at a faster rate than we kill them Tarnatulus?

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
I been thinking about the Bush presidency and the time in which it occurred for a long time. I think Bush is the wrong president in the wrong time. I will try to explain my thinking. But keep in mind that I'm not a scholar and lack the professional experience to deem myself an expert in these matters. But my 74 years of experience have led me to believe in my instinctive and self-educated observations of people and events. So be patient with my attempt to analyse the current world situation.

George W. Bush had no foreign policy experience or knowledge when he decided to run for the presidency. He met Condi Rice, a recognized cold war expert in Soviet affairs and history. Dr. Rice mentored and educated George Bush to give him at least a veneer of foreign policy expertise---just barely. Her task was difficult because Bush is not a reader and is notorious for his lack of curiosity about world events and other things.

Bush surrounded himself with cold warriors in key posts in his government. These cold warriors are steeped in the geopolitics of that era. They appear to have little knowledge of the history and culture of the Islamic nations around the world, except as it impinged on the cold war struggle primarily to defeat the Soviet Union, to protect US access to oil, and the support and protection of Isreal.

The Bush cold-warriors are still fighting the wars and geopolitics of the last century. They are not educated and motivated to fight the wars of the new century against terrorism. That ignorance has led the Bush administration to make a terrible mistake with its attack of Iraq.

I can think of many reasons why the Iraq war is unjustified and unwise. But none is more important than it played directly into Osama bin Laden's trap for the United States.

Richard Clarke's book, Against All Enemies, on page 136 states exactly what I mean. When bin Laden declared war on the United States before Bush took office, he was very clear in stating his goals. "The ingredients al Qaeda dreamed of for propagating its movement were a Christian government attacking a weaker Muslim region, allowing the new terrorist group to rally jihadists from many countries to come to the aid of the religious brethren. After the success of the jihad, the Muslim region would become a radical Islamic state, a breeding ground for more terrorists, a part of the eventual network of Islamic states that would make up the great new Caliphate, or Muslim empire."

Unfortunately, the Bush cold warriors lacked the imagination to realize al Qaeda was able accomplish its devastating attacks around the world because it was not a State. That was bin Laden's winning hand. The arrogance of the cold warriors, convinced that their mighty military and weapons of mass destruction could defeat any foe. They appear to have dismissed Viet Nam as a political failure, not a military one, so one should not be surprised that they would make the same mistake again.

They also lack the understanding of the Islamic world, its life-dominating religion and its nationalistic history. Al Qaeda represents the attempt by militant Islamists to restore the Arab empire to encompass as much of the world as possible. Mosque leaders pronounce the goal of converting non-muslims to the faith all over the world, for example, in countries such as England.

Bush and his cold warriors have failed to recognized that this conflict is, or is leading to a clash of world religions. Terrorism is only one tactic used to further this goal. By attacking Iraq, Bush and the cold warriors have forced the United States and its allies into the first battle of that war.

President Clinton was not a cold warrior and he recognized the changed world and the danger from al Qaeda. Unfortunately, his term of office elapsed before he could effectively counter the growth of al Qaeda.

Then George W. Bush was elected and the cold warriors were in power. It was the wrong president at the wrong time. In general, the Bush administration distrusted anything invented by the Clinton administration and anything of a multilateral nature. The newly elected Bush's focus in early 2001 was on confronting China, withdrawing from various multilateral obligations, and spending much more money on an antimissile defense system. Typical cold warrior thinking. They were not looking into al Qaeda's network because of their arrogance and their lack of imagination to understand the threat.
0 Replies
 
L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 02:07 pm
I thought that was what happened in Falluja... am I wrong there? I didn't read much about it, I just remember them trying to make a deal with the leader of that group.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 02:47 pm
Current policy certainly is not workling:
Americans suck!
Quote:
Mubarak: Arabs Hate U.S. More Than Ever

PARIS (Reuters) - Arabs in the Middle East hate the United States more than ever following the invasion of Iraq and Israel's assassination of two Hamas leaders, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said in comments published Tuesday.

Mubarak, who visited the United States last week, told French newspaper Le Monde that Washington's actions had caused despair, frustration and a sense of injustice in the Arab world.



"Today there is hatred of the Americans like never before in the region," he said in an interview given during a stay in France, where he met President Jacques Chirac Monday.

He blamed the hostility partly on U.S. support for Israel, which assassinated Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi in a missile strike in the Gaza Strip Saturday weeks after killing his predecessor, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

"At the start some considered the Americans were helping them. There was no hatred of the Americans. After what has happened in Iraq, there is unprecedented hatred and the Americans know it," Mubarak said.

"People have a feeling of injustice. What's more, they see (Israeli Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon acting as he pleases, without the Americans saying anything. He assassinates people who don't have the planes and helicopters that he has."

Israel says such killings are self-defense. But Mubarak said the assassination of Rantissi could have "serious consequences" and that instability in Gaza and Iraq would not serve U.S. or Israeli interests.

"The despair and feeling of injustice are not going to be limited to our region alone. American and Israeli interests will not be safe, not only in our region but anywhere in the world," he said.

Asked about Sharon's plan to pull out of Gaza, Mubarak welcomed any withdrawal that was agreed with the Palestinians and in line with a peace "road map" drawn up by the United States, the European Union, the United Nations and Russia.

I found this book quite interesting:


Mahdani, "Good Muslim, Bad Muslim"
Quote:
Good Muslim, Bad Muslim - An African Perspective
Mahmood Mamdani, Herbert Lehman Professor of Government and Anthropology, Columbia University
View/print
essay only

Ever since September 11, there has been a growing media interest in Islam. What is the link, many seem to ask, between Islam and terrorism? The Spectator, a British weekly, carried a lead article a few weeks ago that argued that the link was not with all of Islam, but with a very literal interpretation of it. This version, Wahhabi Islam, it warned, was dominant in Saudi Arabia, from where it had been exported both to Afghanistan and the US. This argument was echoed widely in many circles, more recently in the New York Times. This article is born of dissatisfaction with the new wisdom that we must tell apart the Good Muslim from the Bad Muslim.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 03:02 pm
Logic
"It's easy to see why the terrorists are more successful in spreading extremism and hate than we are of spreading truth, freedom, and compassion though our beliefs are more logical."

Perhaps the "truth" you speak of is not the "truth" that many people in the ME embrace. Truth is within the observer. There is no objective "truth", only subjective "truth". Perhaps, many people view American life in a much different way than many Americans do and reject it. Values are subjective and vary greatly. Perhaps the "beliefs" you speak of are not logical to many people and will never be accepted.

Whether a people are dominated by military means or cultural ones or both, perhaps they will always resent that domination, even though the people dominating feel strongly that it's for the dominated people's best interest.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 04:19 pm
Centroles wrote:
Do you disagree with the assessment that our recent actions are creating more terrorists at a faster rate than we kill them Tarnatulus?

I disagree with much of BBB's assessment. It is based on the assumption that the administration and the military only knows how to fight one kind of war, and they are continuing to use the wrong strategy even when it's been shown to be wrong. Actually there are some pretty smart people in the administration and the military, and they have some pretty smart ideas about how to get rid of terrorism. They're not robots who slam into a brick wall, back up, and charge at the wall again.

There's diplomacy that we don't see going on behind the scenes. Things are changing. Libya, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are slowly coming around to a less totalitarian type of government. These things take time, so in the beginning it might look as though all is lost. But just hang in there and things will start to get better.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 04:24 pm
The real story of Iraq: Bad Days Ahead
The real story of Iraq: Bad Days Ahead

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23221&highlight=&sid=13c0ca4325b946fe317b9bc6e3947c16
0 Replies
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 04:28 pm
Quote:
There is no objective "truth", only subjective "truth".


No there is objective truth and when this happens we have a phenomena we like to term a "fact". Just like one article can be truth and the other baseless rambling. Asfor spreading truth I'm not sure whats meant. What truth? Truth that Earth is round? Or that elephants are larger than mice? Or that my car is a Ford? etc...
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