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One Man's Meat Is Another's Poison!

 
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 04:41 am
It has been revealed recently that during WW2, Winston Churchill laid secret plans that, in the event of a successful invasion of Britain, the people would retaliate against their invaders with acts of continuous sabotage.

Even though Hitler and his gang would have described such acts as TERRORISM, those believing in truth and justice would have recognised and proclaimed them as HEROS AND FREEDOM FIGHTERS.

One cannot help but note that Bush and his gang of land-grabbers continuously villify Iraqis objecting to the invasion of their nation as terrorists rather than freedom fighters.

Logic suggests that one man's terrorist is another's hero.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 791 • Replies: 14
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 04:53 am
Yeah, so what? That's just how it works. It's called propaganda, and both sides of any war have been guilty of it since time immemorial. This post isn't one of your greatest efforts. In fact, it suggests a comparison between Bush and Churchill, which I'm sure wasn't your point, given that Churchill was a brilliant and well-respected politician.
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John Webb
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 06:43 am
My intended point being that there is no difference between the continuous vilifications of some people's heros issued by Hitler then and Bush today.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 06:45 am
I'm no radical conservative, but the Hitler = Bush scenario is just fallacious and knee-jerk. This characterization does the liberals a disservice.
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infowarrior
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 07:07 am
The US invasion and occupation has created an expected groundswell of Iraqi nationalism.

Previously, the Sunnis and Shiites, while not enemies, shared little other than geography. Today, they are united against the US.

What Americans forget is, the people of Falluja know intimately what invasion feels like: the UK invaded and occupied the city back in the 1940's, leading to a large number of British casualities.

If Bush and his neocon supporters really think Iraq will one day become a sparkling, pro-US democracy, then they are delusional.

It ain't gonna' happen.
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cavfancier
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 07:18 am
They are definitely delusional, but they ain't no Nazis. If they were, this war would have been way better planned. Laughing
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 07:56 am
I would not consider just over 2000 troops, out of 134,000, to be a "large number of British casualities".

See the Vietnam comparison thread for more details.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:19 am
infowarrior wrote:
Previously, the Sunnis and Shiites, while not enemies, shared little other than geography. Today, they are united against the US.


This is a specious statement, and more than a little bit of wishful thinking. There are any number of Sunni Muslims who would leap at the opportunity to kill Shi'ites, and the Wahabbis next door in Saudia Arabia are a sobering reminder of what the possibilities are.

Quote:
What Americans forget is, the people of Falluja know intimately what invasion feels like: the UK invaded and occupied the city back in the 1940's, leading to a large number of British casualities.


Arthur Balfour and Winston Churchill created Iraq in 1922. The British occupation, which was a horrible blood letting for the British, took place in the 1920's, not the 1940's. If you want to make a case, you need to get the facts straight, because those who disagree with you can shoot you down on the basis of historical inaccuracy without ever addressing the core of your argument. The likelihood of there being very many Iraqis in Fallujah who recall the 1940's is low, let alone the 1920's.

Quote:
If Bush and his neocon supporters really think Iraq will one day become a sparkling, pro-US democracy, then they are delusional.

It ain't gonna' happen.


I couldn't agree more--and if you want to make your case, get to know the subject matter in a more thorough manner than you have so far displayed, so that you can argue the substance, rather than attempting to defend historically indefensible statements.
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infowarrior
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:23 am
McGentrix-

Reread the reply and focus. The reference was a 1940's invasion of Falluja by the Brits -- not the current Iraq war.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:25 am
McGentrix wrote:
WASHINGTON -- The first George Bush once said he thought the Gulf War would cure America of the Vietnam syndrome. He was wrong. There is no cure for the Vietnam syndrome. It will only go away when the baby-boom generation does, dying off like the Israelites in the desert, allowing a new generation, cleansed of the memories and the guilt, to look at the world clearly once again.

It was inevitable that Iraq would be compared to Vietnam. Indeed, the current comparisons are hardly new. During our astonishingly fast dash to Baghdad, taking the capital within 21 days, the chorus of naysayers was already calling Iraq a quagmire on Day 8! It was not Vietnam then. It is not Vietnam now.

First, rather than inherit a failed (French) imperialism, we liberated the country from a deeply reviled tyrant. Yes, pockets such as Fallujah, which prospered under the tyrant, do not like the fact that those days are over. And they are resisting. But they represent a fraction of a fraction (only a sixth of Iraqis are Sunni Arabs) of the population.

The Shiites, 65 percent of Iraq, are another story. They know we liberated them, but they are also eager to inherit the throne. They are not very enthusiastic about the draft constitution which would limit their power. They chafe at the occupation, but most, in particular their more revered religious leaders, know that if we were to leave, they would fall under the sway of either the Saddamites, foreign Sunni (al Qaeda) terrorists, or the runt Shiite usurper, Moqtada Sadr.

None of these are very appealing prospects, which is why the Shiite establishment has been negotiating on our behalf with the Sadr rebels. And why the members of the Iraqi Governing Council have been negotiating on our behalf with the holdouts in Fallujah.

This is good. We do have a crisis but we also have serious communal leaders working in parallel with us. And these leaders have far more legitimacy than Sadr's grandiloquent Mahdi army or the jihadists of Fallujah.

Iraq is Vietnam not on the ground, but in our heads. The troubles of the last few weeks were immediately interpreted as a national uprising, Iraq's Tet Offensive, and created a momentary panic. The panic overlooked two facts: First, Tet was infinitely larger and deadlier in effect and in scale. And second, Tet was a devastating military defeat for the Viet Cong. They never recovered. Unfortunately, neither did we, psychologically. Walter Cronkite, speaking for the establishment, declared the war lost. Once said, it was.

The other major difference between Vietnam and Iraq is the social terrain. In Vietnam, we confronted a decades-old, centralized nationalist (communist) movement. In Iraq, no such thing exists. Iraq is highly factionalized along lines of ethnicity and religion.

Until now, we have treated this as a problem. Our goal has been to build a united, pluralistic, democratic Iraq in which the factions negotiate their differences the way we do in the West.

It is a noble goal. It would be a great achievement for the Middle East. But it may be a bridge too far. That may happen in the future, when Iraq has had time to develop the habits of democracy and rebuild civil society, razed to the ground by Saddam.

But until then, expecting Iraqis to fight with us on behalf of a new abstract Iraq may be unrealistic. Some Iraqi police and militia did fight with us in the last few weeks. But many did not. That is not hard to understand. There is no de Gaulle. There is no organizing anti-Saddam resistance myth. There is as yet no legitimate Iraqi leadership to fight and die for.

What there is to fight and die for is tribe and faith. Which is why we should lower our ambitions and see Iraqi factionalization as a useful tool. Try to effect, within the agreed interim constitution, a transfer of power to the more responsible elements of the Shiite majority, the moderates who see Sadr as the Iranian agent and fascistic thug that he is.

This is no time for despair. We must put down the two rebellions -- Fallujah's and Sadr's -- to demonstrate our seriousness, then transfer power as quickly as we can to those who will inherit it anyway, the Shiite majority with its long history of religious quietism and wariness of Iran. And antagonism toward their former Sunni oppressors. If the Sunnis continue to resist and carry on a civil war, it will then be up to the Shiites to fight it, not for Americans to do it on their behalf.

Hardly the best of all possible worlds. But it is a world we could live with.

Link
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:27 am
Just a thought. The Sunnis and Shiites were not buddies prior to the invasion of Iraq and won't be buddies long after we go home. You might liken them to the relationship between Louis Farrakhan and Jerry Falwell. The best we can hope for there is that both camps can be persuaded to comply with a common constitution and law.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:33 am
I rather think the divides between Sunni and Shi'ite, and between Kurd, Arab and Persian are sufficiently deep as not to have yet been healed. I would hope as does Fox--however, i remain cynical. It is as likely that foreign fighters will show up to kill Shi'ites as it is for them to come in order to kill Americans. An apparent union of Iraqis now is nothing more than making common cause against the invaders. The playing field will alter dramatically when western soldiers are gone, and, to my mind, civil strife if not outright civil war, is the most probable future condition of that blighted nation.
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NeoGuin
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 09:38 am
Setana:

And could that be what Bush wants?
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Setanta
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 10:19 am
Whether or not he wants it, i would opine that he likely doesn't give a tinker's damn what happens to the Iraqis.
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infowarrior
 
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Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 03:04 pm
I agree, Bush couldn't care less about the Iraqis.

What he cares about is the Iraqis oil.
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