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Jesus and the practice of Slavery

 
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 04:11 pm
Quote:
FrankApisa said: Your god...the god Jesus worshiped...said that slavery was just fine

Well how do you explain these verses mate?-
"He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death " (Exod. 21:16; Deut. 24:7).

"Law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God" (1 Tim 1:9)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 04:24 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
erdf
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
FrankApisa said: Your god...the god Jesus worshiped...said that slavery was just fine

Well how do you explain these verses mate?-
"He that steals a man and sells him, or if he be found in his hands, he shall surely be put to death " (Exod. 21:16; Deut. 24:7).

"Law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God" (1 Tim 1:9)

I'd say it is not anywhere near as clear about slavery as this:


"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen." Leviticus 25:44ff
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 04:40 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Well, you know, Frank. Jesus removed the application of the Mosaic Law when he celebrated the last Passover in 33 CE. I don't know if this fully explains things to your sensibility, but it places a different expectation on Christianity
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 04:46 pm
@neologist,
I'm curious, did you really think that your post would be understood and not attract a barrage of "OH MY GOD! JESUS WOULD NEVER APPROVE OF SLAVERY!" comments or were you fishing for them?
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 04:49 pm
Frankie baby, God HAD to slap troublemaking heathen tribes around to make them toe the line. If he wanted to be really nasty he'd have wiped them out, but he simply enslaved them instead, that's how merciful he is..Smile
He had no beef at all with peaceful tribes, they were his blue-eyed boys and gals and he nurtured and protected them..Smile

“I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters" ( 2 Cor 6:14-18)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 05:11 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Well, you know, Frank. Jesus removed the application of the Mosaic Law when he celebrated the last Passover in 33 CE. I don't know if this fully explains things to your sensibility, but it places a different expectation on Christianity


Jesus worshiped the god who said there was nothing wrong with owning and trading in slaves.

He also said he was not on Earth to change any of the law...and the citation I gave from Leviticus about the right to trade and own slaves...

...IS PART OF THE LAW.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 05:12 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Frankie baby, God HAD to slap troublemaking heathen tribes around to make them toe the line. If he wanted to be really nasty he'd have wiped them out, but he simply enslaved them instead, that's how merciful he is..Smile
He had no beef at all with peaceful tribes, they were his blue-eyed boys and gals and he nurtured and protected them..Smile

“I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters" ( 2 Cor 6:14-18)


Jesus worshiped a particular god.

The god Jesus worshiped...apparently the god you worship...is quoted as saying that there is nothing whatever wrong with owning and trading in slaves.

Deal with that...rather than that other pap that you are trying to sell.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 05:39 pm
My own view on the subject -- and, yes, I know: nobody asked me -- is that the historical Jesus (as opposed to the cardboard figure people tend to conjure up) did not approve of slavery, regardless of what he said about upholding Jewish law. The Essenes were opposed to slavery (vid. Flavius Josephus, Pliny the Elder and the Dead Sea Scrolls) and there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Jesus was more sympathetic to the Essene creed than to other forms of Judaism. He claims to be here to uphold 'the law and the prophets' and then rails against both the Sadducees and the Pharisees who, after all, were each in their own way the representatives of thatlaw. He doesn't have one word to say against (or about) the Essenes who constituted a significant portion of worshipful Judaism of his own day. I think he agreed with the majority of Essene teachings, including the proscription against slavery.

So, then, why is he quoted nowhere as speaking out against it? Simply because, for him, it was not a particularly important issue. A person can be opposed to any number of things on general principle without making noise about it. He is quoted any number of times as saying that his main concern is with the Kingdom of Heaven. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's" is a rather typical phrase. Slavery, either pro or con, does not seem to have been a particularly important issue to most reformers of the period.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 05:54 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
No one need ask for your view in order for you to give it. This a discussion forum. It hasn't stopped you in the past, why so modest now?

In any case, I agree with you, but the OP wasn't making the case that slavery is somehow acceptable because Jesus didn't specifically denounce it. He may have been playing with posters in this regard, but the essence of his post is that willing slavery (to the extent such a thing could exist) is not a bad thing.

Unfortunately he is viewing this notion of willing slavery through a prism of devout faith. First of all, being a slave to God is hardly the same as being a slave to Man, and secondly God doesn't want slaves.

A willing slave is, by definition, not a slave.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 06:10 pm
I don't know why I got caught up in this. I don't even accept that there really was a Jesus. Drunk
anonymously99stwin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 06:22 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
"and, yes, I know: nobody asked me"

Anon wrote:
Freedom of speech my love. We're all entitled to it.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 06:24 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
A willing slave is, by definition, not a slave.


I'm not so sure about that. I think that there is possible, in a slavery situation, the same kind of mental aberration that in a hostage-taking situation is known as the Stockholm Syndrome. This is a case (and it has happened more than once) where the hostages begin to sympathize with their captors and are afraid of the people trying to rescue them. I think a similar thing might occur among some slaves who actually begin to feel a misplaced sense of loyalty and gratitude toward their masters. There are a number of examples in American history where, during the American Civil War, black slaves would take up arms against "Yankee invaders" who had come to end slavery in the South. They saw their liberators as "the enemy."
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 06:37 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
I don't know why I got caught up in this. I don't even accept that there really was a Jesus. Drunk
You are here because you are always an honored guest, my friend.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 06:43 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I'm curious, did you really think that your post would be understood and not attract a barrage of "OH MY GOD! JESUS WOULD NEVER APPROVE OF SLAVERY!" comments or were you fishing for them?
This is my fulfillment of a promise to Frank. The only thing is I did not want to add this to his already lengthy thread. My main intention was to draw attention to Jesus words about the faithful slave. So far, only farmer has caught hold of my design, and maybe smiley. Romeo is beating around the bush, but close. Quite all I expected so far.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 07:33 pm
@neologist,
I have read your original post and I really do see the distinction you wish to draw. Regardless, it still gives slavery the pass.
0 Replies
 
Jack of Hearts
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 07:34 pm
@neologist,
From what I read here, it seems that many give some parity to all forms of slavery which had existed within most all cultures for many a millennia. And most apparently like to take literally, the descriptions written in ancient texts and "sacred" writings.
Know that in most all large slave societies there was well defined stations to which slaves could ascend. A slave would have charge with the education of his master's son - and could punish the lad for poor performance. Slaves often did the books for their master's businesses - slaves helped pharoses design the pyramids. And yes, to albeit very small extent, it was also as such in the U.S. South.
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 07:37 pm
@Jack of Hearts,
Absolutely true, Jack. Benjamin Banister, who even more than l'Enfant helped design the infrastructure of Washington, D.C., was a slave in Maryland at the time.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 07:37 pm
@Jack of Hearts,
Well, yeah, Jack. Not all slave owners used whips and chains.

I hope Frank's sensibilities are not offended by this. Mr. Green
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 08:21 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:

My own view on the subject -- and, yes, I know: nobody asked me -- is that the historical Jesus (as opposed to the cardboard figure people tend to conjure up) did not approve of slavery, regardless of what he said about upholding Jewish law. The Essenes were opposed to slavery (vid. Flavius Josephus, Pliny the Elder and the Dead Sea Scrolls) and there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Jesus was more sympathetic to the Essene creed than to other forms of Judaism. He claims to be here to uphold 'the law and the prophets' and then rails against both the Sadducees and the Pharisees who, after all, were each in their own way the representatives of thatlaw. He doesn't have one word to say against (or about) the Essenes who constituted a significant portion of worshipful Judaism of his own day. I think he agreed with the majority of Essene teachings, including the proscription against slavery.

So, then, why is he quoted nowhere as speaking out against it? Simply because, for him, it was not a particularly important issue. A person can be opposed to any number of things on general principle without making noise about it. He is quoted any number of times as saying that his main concern is with the Kingdom of Heaven. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's" is a rather typical phrase. Slavery, either pro or con, does not seem to have been a particularly important issue to most reformers of the period.


In my own thread on this subject, I originally posed the question as: Why do you suppose Jesus did not condemn slavery?

When the matter you just brought up arose, I indicated I was willing to change the question to: Why do you suppose it was never reported that Jesus condemned slavery?

Either way...my guess has always been: Jesus (and Paul) both lived at a time when slavery was accepted...and my guess is neither saw anything particularly wrong with it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jan, 2014 08:22 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I'm curious, did you really think that your post would be understood and not attract a barrage of "OH MY GOD! JESUS WOULD NEVER APPROVE OF SLAVERY!" comments or were you fishing for them?
This is my fulfillment of a promise to Frank. The only thing is I did not want to add this to his already lengthy thread. My main intention was to draw attention to Jesus words about the faithful slave. So far, only farmer has caught hold of my design, and maybe smiley. Romeo is beating around the bush, but close. Quite all I expected so far.


BOTTOM LINE: The god Jesus worshiped (which apparently is the god you worship) specifically tells us that there is nothing wrong with owning slaves or trading in them. The god specifically tells us it is permitted...not required, but permitted.
 

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