Jesus and the practice of Slavery

@Walter Hinteler,

Exactly, his perspective was limited to his life's experience. Which makes it hard to swallow either that he was the "son of god," or some special creation (as the JWs would have it).

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@Walter Hinteler,

By the way--slavery was a disease for the society, and not just the slaves themselves. The latifundia destroyed the livelihood of small holders and small craftsmen in the West, while bankrupting the imperial economy. No better evidence can be found than in a comparison of the economies of the West and the East. Much of the eastern empire, particularly that in Asia Minor, had been bequeathed to the empire, and the people retained their lands and their ways of life. There was far less direct competition with slave driven enterprises. The latifundia brought down the empire in the West, not the Goths.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Stop being myopic and focusing on the work issue...it is the ownership that is the problem...and that remains a problem no matter how reasonable the work or how benevolent the owner!
Actually, ownership is the answer. Recall Mary's answer to the angel, recorded by Luke: “Look! Jehovah’s slave girl! May it happen to me according to your declaration.” (Luke 1:38) Those of us who serve God are willing slaves.

Jesus discussion about the time of the referred to both faithful and wicked slaves. You could believe he was speaking about individuals . . . But I don't.

Neo...as has been pointed out here by all sorts of people...

...slavery was an abomination on the planet.

The god of the Bible (the god Jesus worshiped...and who's laws Jesus said he was not here to change)...said that slavery was completely permitted and was therefore moral.

It was an abomination then...and it should have been condemned by the god...and by Jesus...and by Paul.

It definitely was not.

Don't try to play games with this here...it has been hashed over many, many times.

It is almost certain that Jesus (and Paul, for that matter) did not condemn slavery BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT...not civilly...nor as a matter of what their god thought.

That god, by the way, is your god.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I couldn't agree less. This is not like the thread in which Frank invited Christians to come in and be browbeaten on this issue.

Actually, a promised response. I didn't wish to have it buried in the longer thread.

Setanta wrote:

Neologist started this thread of his own accord. Neo is an intelligent man. He understands that this is a major moral flaw on the part of his boy Jeebus.

Moral flaw? Hardly?

Setanta wrote:

He is attempting to rationalize it because he has embraced the faith, because he has "drunk the koolaid." However, i believe that, deep down inside, it sticks in his craw. While the Watchtower would certainly praise his orthodoxy, i think what we are seeing here is a slow motion train wreck. I think this is Neo making a pathetic attempt to get other christians to condone his point of view, because he knows it is indefensible.

Actually, I had higher expectations for non believers. Those who call themselves christian . . . Well, there's Romeo . . .

Setanta wrote:

Whatever JW orthodoxy may require of him, this is a subject which flies in the face of the image of Jesus to which all christians subscribe. This is a doctrinal flaw that none of them can explain away.

Hard for nominal christians to explain because they would have to identify both the faithful and the wicked slave.

Setanta wrote:

I think that Neo's "wall of faith" has serious cracks in it, so he seeks some consensus from other christians to salve his conscience.

Hardly. Most nominal christians avoid these discussions. Also, I have no desire to go down with them.

Setanta wrote:

In the case of most christian loonies, i would just laugh at him and go about my business. Neo's a different case--he knows better, he just won't admit it because the JW community has become so important to him. It's sad.

Aw, shucks, Set. Just have some coffee, OK?

Setanta wrote:

EDIT: I believe i am correct in stating that Neo was once shunned by the other JW holy rollers for a serious breach of orthodoxy. I see this as Neo doing some kind of perverse penance. As i say, i believe that deep down inside, Neo knows this is horseshit. I don't think he'll like it that i say this. It's possible that he'll get nasty with me.

How could I get nasty with the guy who looks like the dog I had in my childhood? Come closer. Let me skritch yer head. . . . .

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

By the way--slavery was a disease for the society, and not just the slaves themselves.

That's one of the (main) reasons, why the Romans changed the law later. (Which, however, was only a slight advantage for the slaves but a larger one for the slave owners.)

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@neologist,

Yeah, i knew you would attempt to tap dance around this issue. It was a serious moral flaw in your boy Jesus, as well as evidence of an inability to imagine a world different than the one he lived in. It blows the special creation/son of god BS right out ot the water.

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@Walter Hinteler,

My point, though, was the effect on the small holders and small craftsmen of Magna Graecia, Iberia and Africa. They simply couldn't compete with the latifundia, and eventually went on the dole in Rome.

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@Setanta,

Sure. And of course correct. I only responded more generally.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I never really realized the impact of the latifundia until i met a woman who did her degree in Latin. Her masters thesis was on the latifundia, and she wrote the damned thing in Latin! Oh, my achin' head . . .

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@Setanta,

A careful reading of the Bible identifies Jesus as the one speaking in Proverbs, chapter 8. Even nominal christians will understand that until they realize it zaps their concept of trinity.

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@neologist,

Which, of course, has absolutely no bearing on the issue of the moral flaw which the failure or your boy Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery represents.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

That god, by the way, is your god.

A God to whom I have no qualms about submitting myself as his slave.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
That god, by the way, is your god.
A God to whom I have no qualms about submitting myself as his slave.

You sure are afraid of him...or her...or it.

Anyway...do you think Jesus was also?

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@Frank Apisa,

Were I afraid, I could choose death. That's where I would have been headed anyway. As far as Jesus is concerned, I send you the same reference I offered to set. Jesus is no doubt the one speaking in Proverbs, chapter 8.

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Quote:

Topic title: Jesus and the practice of slavery

Jesus never condemned slavery because the commandments ALREADY indirectly condemned it.
Jesus said - "You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt 19:18/19)
So stealing people from their homes to enslave them isn't exactly a loving thing to do.

Another time a man approached Jesus and asked him to tell his brother to share the family inheritance with him, but Jesus refused, saying “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?” (Luke 12:14)

And later he said- "I did not come to judge the world but to save the world"
(John 12:47)

In short he simply left it to our free will to decide what's right, based on the commandments.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Which, of course, has absolutely no bearing on the issue of the moral flaw which the failure or your boy Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery represents.

Just a comment on your asseveration that Jesus had no understanding of the times.

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@neologist,

As a comment on the times, it is a complete failure. Standing of a dung heap and crowing like a rooster is not evidence that you understand anything.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

"Those who know right from wrong [now] should be punished from/[because of] what they did in the [past, then]?"

((Everyone suffers)) mental problems, different problems anywhere from stress, depression, else similar - to - physical abuse.. which leads, usually leads to ((causes)) one, any individual to be oblivious of their own actions. Later hating themself for what they've done knowing they can't take back what's been done.

You don't see me wanting to kill my family, ex friends, or people, anyone who has/have intentionally put me down, who severely fucked up my head do you? I don't.

Slavery is an act of ******* with one's head. Did you know that? Well it's true. Believe it or not.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

As a comment on the times, it is a complete failure. Standing of a dung heap and crowing like a rooster is not evidence that you understand anything.

I don't recall roosters or dung heaps in Proverbs, chapter 8. So, to whom are you referring?

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Quote:

Anonymous said: Slavery is an act of ******* with one's head. Did you know that? Well it's true. Believe it or not.

Yeah there are all sorts of control freaks out there so don't take them seriously, they're just screwed up freaks.. Smile

1 Reply

Jesus and the practice of Slavery

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