Can one proof that god DOESN'T exist?

Mayhap yer right, Boss . . .

That brain evolution nonsense, though, that's from Julian Jaynes, and represents a view with which i don't agree . . .

Yeah, I wondered why you used it since you said right in the post that he was on truly shakey ground and you didn't agree with it. Seemed an odd way to prove a dubious point. However, since you did, I thought I'd point out the glaring hole.

The best revenge is living well. If you feel that without a belief in god or God that you are still happy, productive and have provided for the future of the human race... then what else is there? You do not need anything more.

Well, in the first instance, i referred to Jaynes because his theories about the evolution of human consciousness are very popular, but not well-founded, in my opinion. I was using it as an example of how the "intelligencia" account for theism.

As for my "moral" place in the world, i don't claim perfection, or even the attempt to attain it--i do try to live as upright a life in terms of treating the world and my fellows well as i am capable of doing, given my natural human failings and a penchant for irreverance and frivolity . . .

I agree with what you say, Setanta about the responsibility to live our lives well and leave an intact universe behind for the generations to come. I have often said that the abortion debate is not really about babies or the unborn, but rather an attempt on the part of some so called "pro lifers" to avoid awareness of the responsibility for making difficult choices.

Of course, Lola, and the ultimately irresponsible cop-out is to claim that one is following god's law. I've always felt that christian leaders (the "rank and file" may actually be sincere in their adherence to dogma, more's the pity) oppose abortion AND birth control because for them its a numbers game of having as many coreligionists as possible. I gotta stop, organized religion makes me very angry if i spend very long in consideration of that particular brand of exploitation of the credulous.

I would like to add something here, which people might think strange, coming from me. Many people who read this thread may well believe that there is a god--i have no quarrel with such people, i object to those who would foist their belief on me. So this is for those sincere theists who truly wish to lead good lives, and are not in the business of peddling their beliefs to others:

The English King Charles II lead a hard life. Although raised in luxury, at age ten his father, Charles I became embroiled in a civil war with Parliament. Charles, Prince of Wales, soon took the field, as befitted his station, in the thinking of the time. When Charles was 18, his father was captured. When Charles was 19, his father was executed. Although he was declared to be king, it was only in the isle of Jersey, and the Parliamentary navy soon made it expedient for him to flee to France. He wandered in exile, in increasing poverty, surrounded by other exiles who hoped to profit from their faithful adherence, and who squabbled constantly with one another over petty insignificances. Finally, in 1660, he was restored to the throne as King Charles II (the little dogs were named for him, he indulged them completely, the bitches even whelped their litters in his bed). Truly a life to give a man a penchant for philosophy.

One of the principal sources for his life is Bishop Burnet. Charles eventually made Burnet the Archbishop of Canterbury, the highest post in the Anglican church. Burnet was the private confessor to Charles. Burnet once wrote to a friend that the King "has a strange notion of God's love." Burnet, of course, being a good protestant and a church leader, had a very long list of things which god hates. Burnet quoted Charles as saying: "The only things which God hates are that we be wicked, and that we design mischief."

Would that all the theists could make their theology so simple and to the point.

Sentanta, I think maybe there is a creator of us all. Whatever the name, this "father" of us all doesn't care whether we practice religious dogma. It wouldn't matter, either, whether we "believed" in it/him/her. Words, words, those are just words.

t is only how we think that matters. It is our thoughts that we have to deal with. We live from the inside-out, what we think so shall we be. I don't think it's even easy to hide thoughts from each other, let alone a "god." Can't you tell when someone is lying? I can, but wouldn't even think of pointing this out to anyone. I'm not perfect either. Sometimes I tell different people differing things, just to confuse them in their gossiping.

Just some of my thinkings from my studies and experiences. Good story about the king.

Wow.

Pardon this small interjection, but I am completely in awe of this discussion. I've spent the last 8 years online surfing from board to board, searching for something I quickly classified as unattainable: intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful conversation. It's a rare find on the internet, and I commend you all for your capacity to have one.

Were I not so tired, drunk, and befuddled by what I percieve to be the only theological debate that hasn't degraded into incindiary havoc after 200+ posts, I might have more related content to deliver; as it stands, you've only my thanks for brightening my rather dim perceptions of the internet and it's userbase.

Thanks.

Welcome, Orglif! Stick around - we've got lotsa good stuff here. :-D

Well said Orglif, and welcome!

Piffka,

Can you explain to me how not being a theist makes it meaningless whether we have children or not? If I understood you correctly....

Geez, Deb. Did I say that? Must have children?

Are you talking about where I said "... provided for the future of the human race?"

Didn't mean having children oneself at all -- actually was partially thinking of you and your work with kids. Just having a baby is nothing. It is sending them on the right road, healthy in body & mind, possibly with something left of this old deathtrap of a planet. Thinking environmentally as well.

Service to others... if we knew whatever we did in life provided that, we'd already be in heaven.

And on just what do you base your assumption we are not?


LOL ... Welcome, Orglif. C'mon in; the converstion is fine. Splash around a little bit yourself.



timber

Orglif, A thinking person, searching for a good, respectful debate is always welcome here. When you're back on your feet, I hope to see more of you.

What other proof is necessary?

LOL Bill..............I absolutely agree with you.........the God in all of us. I just love this man and his godliness.

Sorry Piffka - I should have found the quote - my only excuse is that it was late, and I knew it was several long posts back - and my befuddled brain got it wrong anyway!

Piffka wrote: "And I suppose there is a belief in no god, just science, where all the coincidences and beautiful symmetries, the delightful chaos that in itself has patterns are part of this amazing and varied experiemental station that we find ourselves. We're here for four score & ten, give or take. And then gone. Is that all there is? If so, then it doesn't make any difference to us anyway, especially if we don't have children... which I guess is where the lonesome part comes in."

I would certainly not agree that not having children makes a godless world and life less meaningful - although I can see how people might think so - generativity and footprints in the sands of time have many forms - but I think you have moved on from this view, anyway?

However - the challenge to find meaning is, I think, a more active and assertive thing for the godfree - or there is a challenge to live, as the existentialists and absurdists did, in the face of meaninglessness. But they cheated and found meaning anyway!

Re science, by the way, I would argue that it has - or rationalism has - some of the status and pattern of a religion, anyway. Sure, individual beliefs about how things work change over time - but generally not in such a smooth and seamless and logical way as scientismists would have us believe - but the underlying tenets are clung to strongly, I think.

maybe that is simply how our brains make us do stuff!

Oh, Deb, you did go quite a ways back to that posting where, I would like to point out, I was trying to provide an all-encompassing list of the major forms of belief in God, gods or none of the above.

So let me see, I said "Under the case of not believing in god, it doesn't make any difference to us anyway, particularly if we don't have children."

I've heard more than one athiest feel annoyance that they won't be allowed to know anymore once their short time on earth is up. And just as it is said, a bachelor has no need for insurance, someone without any children would particularly have little stake in the future.

I didn't write this to hurt anyone's feelings, but it is fairly obvious and something I still believe. I have not moved on, as you say, beyond this view of a certain lack of meaning to life. Guess I've picked this up from Doris Lessing's Shikasta...Canopus in Argos. If we are here and then we die, and we don't believe in anything, especially not the continuation of the soul, who cares? According to Lessing, there is a universal malaise that sickens an entire planet and leaves them without a will to live when the entire population believes it has no future.

If we are here (as we are) and then we die, but we've left progeny, adopted or otherwise... we still die, and who cares, though somebody might care a little more at the last. Still, if we don't believe in any further experience of the soul, then so what?

If there is nothing beyond this life, then there is nothing... life, at the moment of death, becomes meaningless. If you believe in a god and believe that a future of some kind exists for your soul, then you can create (with or without a basis in reality) more meaning for yourself.... and any children left behind.

I don't agree, Piffka that life is meaningless if there is no after life or God. I know many feel this way. But for me it doesn't come out that way. Meaning for me is living itself. And as far as the future is concerned, I hope to do something while I'm here to improve the lives of those who follow me. Life is magnificiently gratifying to me and I hope to others. But I think we deprive ourselves of the full blessing of life by demanding more than we have reason to believe will be (life after death.)

And Deb, I would agree with you about science being a religion, if it were not for one very important reason. Science is based on doubt. Without doubt, we have no science. So the fact of doubt is what makes science possible. I think many people think of science as a collection of absolute facts or laws, when really, science is a process and nothing more. This feature, which really defines science is at huge odds with religion which seeks to eliminate doubt with something called faith.