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History shows Islam, democracy unlikely to mix in Iraq

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:54 pm
If it is truly representative of all the people of iraq, it won't be anti-US.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 03:01 pm
McGentrix wrote:
If it is truly representative of all the people of iraq, it won't be anti-US.

And the reasoning behind this comment is?
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 05:17 pm
Because the majority of the Iraqi's are not anti-American.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 05:18 pm
Again, your reasoning behind this opinion is...?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 05:32 pm
Uh, because they are? Are you aware of something I don't know about that would prove differently.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 05:37 pm
ok bye
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 05:42 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Uh, because they are? Are you aware of something I don't know about that would prove differently.

Not anything that regular perusal of various press sources, personal knowledge of the Arab world, an ability to speak and read Arabic, and a willingness to accept ideas different from my own and an unwillingness to close my eyes to things I don't like wouldn't account for, no...
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 05:50 pm
And I suppose you have been to Iraq and interviewed the majority of Iraqi's? I speak English fluently, have personal knowledge of England and a willingness to accept ideas different from my own and an unwillingness to close my eyes to things I don't like wouldn't account for, but that doesn't make me an expert on what the majority of the people in England think.

Until you can show evidence that the majority of Iraqi's think differently than what the major news sources, the UN, various people that have experience in Iraq, soldiers I have personally spoken with and every other indicator in the world shows, I will continue thinking what I do.

As an aside, I consider
Hobitbob wrote:
a willingness to accept ideas different from my own and an unwillingness to close my eyes to things I don't like wouldn't account for
a blatant lie from you.
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 05:52 pm
Shocked
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unknown man
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 06:53 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Because the majority of the Iraqi's are not anti-American.


Ahh, too true, but the ones that are are the ones that are willing to fight for their cause. They have the guns, and we already know they will use them.
Those that support the troops will not fight for democracy because we have already proved to them that America will. Why should they put more work on their shoulders and kill fellow Iraqs when they can let us do it, let our boys be killed, and not theirs?
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Foxfyre
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 11:17 am
I have looked long and hard on the subject of 'what the Iraqis' think' and, if you read everything written, you can speculate that anything you want to believe is true.

The overwhelming evidence is that fundamentalist radical militant Islam hates the United States because we stand for everything they do not, and if they can bring us down, they can do anything they want including dominating the world or at least most of it.

The factions still fighting against us in Iraq are part of these fundamentalist groups. The last thing they want is for Iraq to be a free and open society in charge of its own destiny. They would then have no power to enforce their own agenda.'

Iraq is such a blip on the global scale, but so was the United States when it finally threw off the yoke of monarchy and took control of its own destiny. And look how democracy has spread from there.
If Iraq becomes a free and prosperous nation, I think democracy and freedom will spread from there too. I hope I live long enough to see it because it will be a wonderful thing.

We can't afford to lose this war. It would be tragic for all the people of the world.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 11:23 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I have looked long and hard on the subject of 'what the Iraqis' think' and, if you read everything written, you can speculate that anything you want to believe is true.

What have you read? What sources? You mention the NY Post and FOx quite a bit, but little else.

Quote:
The overwhelming evidence is that fundamentalist radical militant Islam hates the United States because we stand for everything they do not, and if they can bring us down, they can do anything they want including dominating the world or at least most of it.

But do you understand that not all of the opposition is made up of this group? The majority of the opposition seems to be made up of people who want the US to leave. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
The factions still fighting against us in Iraq are part of these fundamentalist groups. The last thing they want is for Iraq to be a free and open society in charge of its own destiny. They would then have no power to enforce their own agenda.'

Again, what is your evidence for such a naive statement?

Quote:
Iraq is such a blip on the global scale, but so was the United States when it finally threw off the yoke of monarchy and took control of its own destiny. And look how democracy has spread from there.

Can we then agree that for Iraq to become free, it must throw off teh yoke of US oppression?


Quote:
If Iraq becomes a free and prosperous nation, I think democracy and freedom will spread from there too. I hope I live long enough to see it because it will be a wonderful thing.

Good for you, want a cookie?

Quote:
We can't afford to lose this war. It would be tragic for all the people of the world.

I don't see how we can "win" it and still accomplish the lofty goals you espouse.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:32 pm
What "yoke of US oppression"?

You mean the oppression of restoring critical facilities and infrastructure?

You mean the oppression of supplying security for food shipments?

You mean the restoration of Iraq's oil production?

You mean the oppression of getting food and aid to those that need it and not just those that support the dictator?

You mean the oppression of getting a government setup that will fairly protect and represent ALL iraqi's instead of one of the factions?

If this is the oppression you speak of then I would think that no, they must not throw off that yoke.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:42 pm
Quote:
You mean the oppression of getting a government setup that will fairly protect and represent ALL iraqi's instead of one of the factions?

Do you see any signs that this is happening? That this is even being planned?
Instead, the "Coalition (otherwise known as the US military)" continues many of the practices used by Hussein.
That would be the "yoke of oppression" of which I spoke.
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McGentrix
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:54 pm
Can you give some examples?
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:11 pm
Other than the treatment of the Iraqis by the US? Other than teh midnight raids, and the "arrests" and the beating of prisoners? Other than the incidents of shooting into unarmed crowds? Other than the killing of civilians by Gunship and artillery fire? No, of course not. Wink
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:29 pm
Treatment of Iraqi criminals you mean...

Midnight raids to find and seize terrorists you mean...

The "arrests" and ALLEGED beating of Iraqi insurgents you mean?

The ALLEGED shooting into un-armed crowds you mean? (Though I doubt this actually happened.)

The unfortunate civilian deaths as a result of cowards hiding amongst them you mean?

Your sympathy for terrorism and terrorists continues to amaze me.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:38 pm
And your ability to hide from things that don't fit into your worldview continues to amaze me.
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mesquite
 
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Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 07:22 pm
McG,
Do you really think that the revenge action on Fallujah was a worthy activity?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 08:05 pm
"revenge action"?!
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