132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 05:13 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
because you cannot succeed if you actually discuss the thread topic.


I have been doing nothing else but discuss the thread topic. I have provided a few reasons why people deny evolution and you have not responded to any of them.

Evolution is not the topic here.

I have been defending my views from the start. And I have been very genteel in doing so.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 05:20 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
because you cannot succeed if you actually discuss the thread topic.
I have been doing nothing else but discuss the thread topic....Evolution is not the topic here....

I'll accept that. However, I expect that we'll meet again in a thread where evolution itself is the topic.
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 05:22 pm
@Brandon9000,
It's a boring topic. It is ever at risk of breaking out all trivial-like.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 05:38 pm
@Brandon9000,
Ive thrown up y hands because I believe most people are what they represent themselves as. I sort of suspected that maybe Quahog was actually a colleague making a big joke but , later, his lack of any knowledge made that an impossibility.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 05:44 pm
@spendius,
well, if you cannot understand, youre on your own.

There are several internet "culture" studies sponsored by actual institutions. They have a slot for your style of wanking alo.

Sounds like your number hs been gotten by most others also. (You aren't a disappointment to me. Youre more like the kid with ADHD , once and a while you will say something rational but you don't stay on the topic long enough to inspect it closely)
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 06:54 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Ive thrown up y hands because I believe most people are what they represent themselves as. I sort of suspected that maybe Quahog was actually a colleague making a big joke but , later, his lack of any knowledge made that an impossibility.

Whether he is what he seems to be, a troll, or whether he is a colleague making a joke, it seems to me that he is mentally ill. I mean that seriously. A person who routinely creates disturbances to bask in the attention is mentally ill. If it's a colleague making a joke, it's far past the point where a mentally healthy person would stop.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 07:49 pm
@Brandon9000,
yeh, I was certain that no one would carry on like that for so long.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 11:27 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Ive thrown up y hands because I believe most people are what they represent themselves as. I sort of suspected that maybe Quahog was actually a colleague making a big joke but , later, his lack of any knowledge made that an impossibility.


Still trying to convince yourself evolution is no hoax?

sorry, itt is.
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Sun 18 May, 2014 11:29 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
I'll accept that. However, I expect that we'll meet again in a thread where evolution itself is the topic.


What is the topic here then?

ah well, there is no evolution so why starting a thread? Wink
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 05:27 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I sort of suspected that maybe Quahog was actually a colleague making a big joke but


You couldn't suspect that unless your colleagues are aware of your posting here. Which is a foolish thing for you to have allowed to happen.

I have always maintained that A2K meets are bound to inhibit honesty in discussions thereafter.

I used to accuse Auberon Waugh of being economical with the truth because his wife and other relations were reading his columns. One of his colleagues on the Telegraph told me about his own articles, under a false name, in one of the top shelf men's magazines in which ladies go much further than Madonna dared do in her famous book. The difference between those articles and the ones he wrote in the Telegraph under his own name was extraordinary.

It strikes me that you might be using Q in that remark as a coy way of asking me to be more polite. If it is then I must inform you that I am already polite on behalf of readers here I don't know compared with what I would say about this subject in a pub to somebody talking as you do.

It is you, we must not forget, who wishes to promote evolution to the masses whilst pretending they won't see the implications as applied to their own lives. In fact, those implications are the first ones they will see. Why don't you promote gynecology in science classrooms?

Pussy-footing around with non-human life and sedimentary deposits is what Q might mean by a hoax in the sense that there is a cod innocent pretence that the masses won't make the connection to themselves. Others have been more forthright and have claimed evolution is a form of indecent exposure.

So another reason for the denial of evolution is to avoid that obvious connection and the consequent demystification of people's love life. Specialists in the subject must take their chances in that regard and I hope they are suitably compensated.



0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 05:37 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Whether he is what he seems to be, a troll, or whether he is a colleague making a joke, it seems to me that he is mentally ill. I mean that seriously. A person who routinely creates disturbances to bask in the attention is mentally ill. If it's a colleague making a joke, it's far past the point where a mentally healthy person would stop.


You can hardly expect anybody intelligent to discuss anything with a person who makes such ridiculous statements. Media is permeated by such people as you describe.

Since when has disagreeing with you been classed as a "disturbance". Why are you not seeking attention? And when you get into designating others as "mentally ill" you should lose all credibility.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 05:39 am
@spendius,
Quote:

You can hardly expect anybody intelligent to discuss anything with a person who makes such ridiculous statements. Media is permeated by such people as you describe.

Since when has disagreeing with you been classed as a "disturbance". Why are you not seeking attention? And when you get into designating others as "mentally ill" you should lose all credibility.


I rest my case Wink
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 05:44 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Whether he is what he seems to be, a troll, or whether he is a colleague making a joke, it seems to me that he is mentally ill. I mean that seriously. A person who routinely creates disturbances to bask in the attention is mentally ill. If it's a colleague making a joke, it's far past the point where a mentally healthy person would stop.


You can hardly expect anybody intelligent to discuss anything with a person who makes such ridiculous statements. Media is permeated by such people as you describe.

Since when has disagreeing with you been classed as a "disturbance". Why are you not seeking attention? And when you get into designating others as "mentally ill" you should lose all credibility.

You're misrepresenting what I said. Perhaps you haven't been following the posts of this user. Disagreeing with me definitely doesn't constitute creating a disturbance. However, this user seems to post only to provoke negative attention. That actually does constitute a mental problem. Am I not seeing attention, you ask? That's certainly not a part of why I post that I am aware of. Possibly it's true now and then, but what I do not do is seek attention by means of trying to create a disturbance.
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 05:49 am
@Brandon9000,
The US is second from the bottom among "developed" states that accept evolution as the best explanation of the development of life on the planet.
       http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Views_on_Evolution.svg/440px-Views_on_Evolution.svg.png


I knew we had a lot of tupid people but I find it hard to believe weve got that high a percentage of lame brains
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 07:29 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I knew we had a lot of tupid people but I find it hard to believe weve got that high a percentage of lame brains


I don't Wink

And offcourse the whole thing is nonsense!
Why? Making a poll to see how many belief shite?
With the underlying, but extremely stupid idea, that if enough people
believe in shite, shite is true? Hmmmmmm isn't that fallacy called hmmm ..appeal to popularity?, hmmm, yes think so. Anyway it IS a fallacy.

I really don't think you are a scientist! Can't be

O wait!


yes, I do! Wink

They can't think straight and have to move their head out of ther ass first.

Wink
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 07:58 am
Heres the classic short article in 2000 that was published in the popular science mag "SCientific American". Interestingly in the ensuing 14 years since the articles publication several major discoveries and experiments have shown even more clearly that the tenets of evolution are fact. (cf, the finding of Tiiktalik Rosaea, the discovery of "fossil genes", the use of "knock out genes to restore ancient appurtenances onto existeing genera (such as chickens with teeth))
Quote:
15 ITEMS OF CREATIONIST NONSENSE



lAYNE KENNEDY Corbis


When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 143 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt. Today that battle has been won everywhere--except in the public imagination.

Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as "intelligent design" to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms. As this article goes to press, the Ohio Board of Education is debating whether to mandate such a change. Some antievolutionists, such as Philip E. Johnson, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley and author of Darwin on Trial, admit that they intend for intelligent-design theory to serve as a "wedge" for reopening science classrooms to discussions of God.

Besieged teachers and others may increasingly find themselves on the spot to defend evolution and refute creationism. The arguments that creationists use are typically specious and based on misunderstandings of (or outright lies about) evolution, but the number and diversity of the objections can put even well-informed people at a disadvantage.

To help with answering them, the following list rebuts some of the most common "scientific" arguments raised against evolution. It also directs readers to further sources for information and explains why creation science has no place in the classroom.

1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.
Many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.

2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.
"Survival of the fittest" is a conversational way to describe natural selection, but a more technical description speaks of differential rates of survival and reproduction. That is, rather than labeling species as more or less fit, one can describe how many offspring they are likely to leave under given circumstances. Drop a fast-breeding pair of small-beaked finches and a slower-breeding pair of large-beaked finches onto an island full of food seeds. Within a few generations the fast breeders may control more of the food resources. Yet if large beaks more easily crush seeds, the advantage may tip to the slow breeders. In a pioneering study of finches on the Galápagos Islands, Peter R. Grant of Princeton University observed these kinds of population shifts in the wild [see his article "Natural Selection and Darwin's Finches"; Scientific American, October 1991].

The key is that adaptive fitness can be defined without reference to survival: large beaks are better adapted for crushing seeds, irrespective of whether that trait has survival value under the circumstances.

3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.
This blanket dismissal of evolution ignores important distinctions that divide the field into at least two broad areas: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution looks at changes within species over time--changes that may be preludes to speciation, the origin of new species. Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related.

These days even most creationists acknowledge that microevolution has been upheld by tests in the laboratory (as in studies of cells, plants and fruit flies) and in the field (as in Grant's studies of evolving beak shapes among Gal¿pagos finches). Natural selection and other mechanisms--such as chromosomal changes, symbiosis and hybridization--can drive profound changes in populations over time.

The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not--and does not--find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.

Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.

It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.

4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution.
No evidence suggests that evolution is losing adherents. Pick up any issue of a peer-reviewed biological journal, and you will find articles that support and extend evolutionary studies or that embrace evolution as a fundamental concept.

Conversely, serious scientific publications disputing evolution are all but nonexistent. In the mid-1990s George W. Gilchrist of the University of Washington surveyed thousands of journals in the primary literature, seeking articles on intelligent design or creation science. Among those hundreds of thousands of scientific reports, he found none. In the past two years, surveys done independently by Barbara Forrest of Southeastern Louisiana University and Lawrence M. Krauss of Case Western Reserve University have been similarly fruitless.

Creationists retort that a closed-minded scientific community rejects their evidence. Yet according to the editors of Nature, Science and other leading journals, few antievolution manuscripts are even submitted. Some antievolution authors have published papers in serious journals. Those papers, however, rarely attack evolution directly or advance creationist arguments; at best, they identify certain evolutionary problems as unsolved and difficult (which no one disputes). In short, creationists are not giving the scientific world good reason to take them seriously.

5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution.
Evolutionary biologists passionately debate diverse topics: how speciation happens, the rates of evolutionary change, the ancestral relationships of birds and dinosaurs, whether Neandertals were a species apart from modern humans, and much more. These disputes are like those found in all other branches of science. Acceptance of evolution as a factual occurrence and a guiding principle is nonetheless universal in biology.

Unfortunately, dishonest creationists have shown a willingness to take scientists' comments out of context to exaggerate and distort the disagreements. Anyone acquainted with the works of paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University knows that in addition to co-authoring the punctuated-equilibrium model, Gould was one of the most eloquent defenders and articulators of evolution. (Punctuated equilibrium explains patterns in the fossil record by suggesting that most evolutionary changes occur within geologically brief intervals--which may nonetheless amount to hundreds of generations.) Yet creationists delight in dissecting out phrases from Gould's voluminous prose to make him sound as though he had doubted evolution, and they present punctuated equilibrium as though it allows new species to materialize overnight or birds to be born from reptile eggs.

When confronted with a quotation from a scientific authority that seems to question evolution, insist on seeing the statement in context. Almost invariably, the attack on evolution will prove illusory.

6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?
This surprisingly common argument reflects several levels of ignorance about evolution. The first mistake is that evolution does not teach that humans descended from monkeys; it states that both have a common ancestor.

The deeper error is that this objection is tantamount to asking, "If children descended from adults, why are there still adults?" New species evolve by splintering off from established ones, when populations of organisms become isolated from the main branch of their family and acquire sufficient differences to remain forever distinct. The parent species may survive indefinitely thereafter, or it may become extinct.

7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.
The origin of life remains very much a mystery, but biochemists have learned about how primitive nucleic acids, amino acids and other building blocks of life could have formed and organized themselves into self-replicating, self-sustaining units, laying the foundation for cellular biochemistry. Astrochemical analyses hint that quantities of these compounds might have originated in space and fallen to earth in comets, a scenario that may solve the problem of how those constituents arose under the conditions that prevailed when our planet was young.

Creationists sometimes try to invalidate all of evolution by pointing to science's current inability to explain the origin of life. But even if life on earth turned out to have a nonevolutionary origin (for instance, if aliens introduced the first cells billions of years ago), evolution since then would be robustly confirmed by countless microevolutionary and macroevolutionary studies.

8. Mathematically, it is inconceivable that anything as complex as a protein, let alone a living cell or a human, could spring up by chance.
Chance plays a part in evolution (for example, in the random mutations that can give rise to new traits), but evolution does not depend on chance to create organisms, proteins or other entities. Quite the opposite: natural selection, the principal known mechanism of evolution, harnesses nonrandom change by preserving "desirable" (adaptive) features and eliminating "undesirable" (nonadaptive) ones. As long as the forces of selection stay constant, natural selection can push evolution in one direction and produce sophisticated structures in surprisingly short times.

As an analogy, consider the 13-letter sequence "TOBEORNOTTOBE." Those hypothetical million monkeys, each pecking out one phrase a second, could take as long as 78,800 years to find it among the 2613 sequences of that length. But in the 1980s Richard Hardison of Glendale College wrote a computer program that generated phrases randomly while preserving the positions of individual letters that happened to be correctly placed (in effect, selecting for phrases more like Hamlet's). On average, the program re-created the phrase in just 336 iterations, less than 90 seconds. Even more amazing, it could reconstruct Shakespeare's entire play in just four and a half days.

9. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa.
This argument derives from a misunderstanding of the Second Law. If it were valid, mineral crystals and snowflakes would also be impossible, because they, too, are complex structures that form spontaneously from disordered parts.

The Second Law actually states that the total entropy of a closed system (one that no energy or matter leaves or enters) cannot decrease. Entropy is a physical concept often casually described as disorder, but it differs significantly from the conversational use of the word.

More important, however, the Second Law permits parts of a system to decrease in entropy as long as other parts experience an offsetting increase. Thus, our planet as a whole can grow more complex because the sun pours heat and light onto it, and the greater entropy associated with the sun's nuclear fusion more than rebalances the scales. Simple organisms can fuel their rise toward complexity by consuming other forms of life and nonliving materials.

10. Mutations are essential to evolution theory, but mutations can only eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features.
On the contrary, biology has catalogued many traits produced by point mutations (changes at precise positions in an organism's DNA)--bacterial resistance to antibiotics, for example.

Mutations that arise in the homeobox (Hox) family of development-regulating genes in animals can also have complex effects. Hox genes direct where legs, wings, antennae and body segments should grow. In fruit flies, for instance, the mutation called Antennapedia causes legs to sprout where antennae should grow. These abnormal limbs are not functional, but their existence demonstrates that genetic mistakes can produce complex structures, which natural selection can then test for possible uses.

Moreover, molecular biology has discovered mechanisms for genetic change that go beyond point mutations, and these expand the ways in which new traits can appear. Functional modules within genes can be spliced together in novel ways. Whole genes can be accidentally duplicated in an organism's DNA, and the duplicates are free to mutate into genes for new, complex features. Comparisons of the DNA from a wide variety of organisms indicate that this is how the globin family of blood proteins evolved over millions of years.

11. Natural selection might explain microevolution, but it cannot explain the origin of new species and higher orders of life.
Evolutionary biologists have written extensively about how natural selection could produce new species. For instance, in the model called allopatry, developed by Ernst Mayr of Harvard University, if a population of organisms were isolated from the rest of its species by geographical boundaries, it might be subjected to different selective pressures. Changes would accumulate in the isolated population. If those changes became so significant that the splinter group could not or routinely would not breed with the original stock, then the splinter group would be reproductively isolated and on its way toward becoming a new species.

Natural selection is the best studied of the evolutionary mechanisms, but biologists are open to other possibilities as well. Biologists are constantly assessing the potential of unusual genetic mechanisms for causing speciation or for producing complex features in organisms. Lynn Margulis of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and others have persuasively argued that some cellular organelles, such as the energy-generating mitochondria, evolved through the symbiotic merger of ancient organisms. Thus, science welcomes the possibility of evolution resulting from forces beyond natural selection. Yet those forces must be natural; they cannot be attributed to the actions of mysterious creative intelligences whose existence, in scientific terms, is unproved.

12. Nobody has ever seen a new species evolve.
Speciation is probably fairly rare and in many cases might take centuries. Furthermore, recognizing a new species during a formative stage can be difficult, because biologists sometimes disagree about how best to define a species. The most widely used definition, Mayr's Biological Species Concept, recognizes a species as a distinct community of reproductively isolated populations--sets of organisms that normally do not or cannot breed outside their community. In practice, this standard can be difficult to apply to organisms isolated by distance or terrain or to plants (and, of course, fossils do not breed). Biologists therefore usually use organisms' physical and behavioral traits as clues to their species membership.

Nevertheless, the scientific literature does contain reports of apparent speciation events in plants, insects and worms. In most of these experiments, researchers subjected organisms to various types of selection--for anatomical differences, mating behaviors, habitat preferences and other traits--and found that they had created populations of organisms that did not breed with outsiders. For example, William R. Rice of the University of New Mexico and George W. Salt of the University of California at Davis demonstrated that if they sorted a group of fruit flies by their preference for certain environments and bred those flies separately over 35 generations, the resulting flies would refuse to breed with those from a very different environment.

13. Evolutionists cannot point to any transitional fossils--creatures that are half reptile and half bird, for instance.
Actually, paleontologists know of many detailed examples of fossils intermediate in form between various taxonomic groups. One of the most famous fossils of all time is Archaeopteryx, which combines feathers and skeletal structures peculiar to birds with features of dinosaurs. A flock's worth of other feathered fossil species, some more avian and some less, has also been found. A sequence of fossils spans the evolution of modern horses from the tiny Eohippus. Whales had four-legged ancestors that walked on land, and creatures known as Ambulocetus and Rodhocetus helped to make that transition [see "The Mammals That Conquered the Seas," by Kate Wong; Scientific American, May]. Fossil seashells trace the evolution of various mollusks through millions of years. Perhaps 20 or more hominids (not all of them our ancestors) fill the gap between Lucy the australopithecine and modern humans.

Creationists, though, dismiss these fossil studies. They argue that Archaeopteryx is not a missing link between reptiles and birds--it is just an extinct bird with reptilian features. They want evolutionists to produce a weird, chimeric monster that cannot be classified as belonging to any known group. Even if a creationist does accept a fossil as transitional between two species, he or she may then insist on seeing other fossils intermediate between it and the first two. These frustrating requests can proceed ad infinitum and place an unreasonable burden on the always incomplete fossil record.

Nevertheless, evolutionists can cite further supportive evidence from molecular biology. All organisms share most of the same genes, but as evolution predicts, the structures of these genes and their products diverge among species, in keeping with their evolutionary relationships. Geneticists speak of the "molecular clock" that records the passage of time. These molecular data also show how various organisms are transitional within evolution.

14. Living things have fantastically intricate features--at the anatomical, cellular and molecular levels--that could not function if they were any less complex or sophisticated. The only prudent conclusion is that they are the products of intelligent design, not evolution.
This "argument from design" is the backbone of most recent attacks on evolution, but it is also one of the oldest. In 1802 theologian William Paley wrote that if one finds a pocket watch in a field, the most reasonable conclusion is that someone dropped it, not that natural forces created it there. By analogy, Paley argued, the complex structures of living things must be the handiwork of direct, divine invention. Darwin wrote On the Origin of Species as an answer to Paley: he explained how natural forces of selection, acting on inherited features, could gradually shape the evolution of ornate organic structures.

Generations of creationists have tried to counter Darwin by citing the example of the eye as a structure that could not have evolved. The eye's ability to provide vision depends on the perfect arrangement of its parts, these critics say. Natural selection could thus never favor the transitional forms needed during the eye's evolution--what good is half an eye? Anticipating this criticism, Darwin suggested that even "incomplete" eyes might confer benefits (such as helping creatures orient toward light) and thereby survive for further evolutionary refinement. Biology has vindicated Darwin: researchers have identified primitive eyes and light-sensing organs throughout the animal kingdom and have even tracked the evolutionary history of eyes through comparative genetics. (It now appears that in various families of organisms, eyes have evolved independently.)

Today's intelligent-design advocates are more sophisticated than their predecessors, but their arguments and goals are not fundamentally different. They criticize evolution by trying to demonstrate that it could not account for life as we know it and then insist that the only tenable alternative is that life was designed by an unidentified intelligence.

15. Recent discoveries prove that even at the microscopic level, life has a quality of complexity that could not have come about through evolution.
"Irreducible complexity" is the battle cry of Michael J. Behe of Lehigh University, author of Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. As a household example of irreducible complexity, Behe chooses the mousetrap--a machine that could not function if any of its pieces were missing and whose pieces have no value except as parts of the whole. What is true of the mousetrap, he says, is even truer of the bacterial flagellum, a whiplike cellular organelle used for propulsion that operates like an outboard motor. The proteins that make up a flagellum are uncannily arranged into motor components, a universal joint and other structures like those that a human engineer might specify. The possibility that this intricate array could have arisen through evolutionary modification is virtually nil, Behe argues, and that bespeaks intelligent design. He makes similar points about the blood's clotting mechanism and other molecular systems.

Yet evolutionary biologists have answers to these objections. First, there exist flagellae with forms simpler than the one that Behe cites, so it is not necessary for all those components to be present for a flagellum to work. The sophisticated components of this flagellum all have precedents elsewhere in nature, as described by Kenneth R. Miller of Brown University and others. In fact, the entire flagellum assembly is extremely similar to an organelle that Yersinia pestis, the bubonic plague bacterium, uses to inject toxins into cells.

The key is that the flagellum's component structures, which Behe suggests have no value apart from their role in propulsion, can serve multiple functions that would have helped favor their evolution. The final evolution of the flagellum might then have involved only the novel recombination of sophisticated parts that initially evolved for other purposes. Similarly, the blood-clotting system seems to involve the modification and elaboration of proteins that were originally used in digestion, according to studies by Russell F. Doolittle of the University of California at San Diego. So some of the complexity that Behe calls proof of intelligent design is not irreducible at all.

Complexity of a different kind--"specified complexity"--is the cornerstone of the intelligent-design arguments of William A. Dembski of Baylor University in his books The Design Inference and No Free Lunch. Essentially his argument is that living things are complex in a way that undirected, random processes could never produce. The only logical conclusion, Dembski asserts, in an echo of Paley 200 years ago, is that some superhuman intelligence created and shaped life.

Dembski's argument contains several holes. It is wrong to insinuate that the field of explanations consists only of random processes or designing intelligences. Researchers into nonlinear systems and cellular automata at the Santa Fe Institute and elsewhere have demonstrated that simple, undirected processes can yield extraordinarily complex patterns. Some of the complexity seen in organisms may therefore emerge through natural phenomena that we as yet barely understand. But that is far different from saying that the complexity could not have arisen naturally.

"Creation science" is a contradiction in terms. A central tenet of modern science is methodological naturalism--it seeks to explain the universe purely in terms of observed or testable natural mechanisms. Thus, physics describes the atomic nucleus with specific concepts governing matter and energy, and it tests those descriptions experimentally. Physicists introduce new particles, such as quarks, to flesh out their theories only when data show that the previous descriptions cannot adequately explain observed phenomena. The new particles do not have arbitrary properties, moreover--their definitions are tightly constrained, because the new particles must fit within the existing framework of physics.

In contrast, intelligent-design theorists invoke shadowy entities that conveniently have whatever unconstrained abilities are needed to solve the mystery at hand. Rather than expanding scientific inquiry, such answers shut it down. (How does one disprove the existence of omnipotent intelligences?)

Intelligent design offers few answers. For instance, when and how did a designing intelligence intervene in life's history? By creating the first DNA? The first cell? The first human? Was every species designed, or just a few early ones? Proponents of intelligent-design theory frequently decline to be pinned down on these points. They do not even make real attempts to reconcile their disparate ideas about intelligent design. Instead they pursue argument by exclusion--that is, they belittle evolutionary explanations as far-fetched or incomplete and then imply that only design-based alternatives remain.

Logically, this is misleading: even if one naturalistic explanation is flawed, it does not mean that all are. Moreover, it does not make one intelligent-design theory more reasonable than another. Listeners are essentially left to fill in the blanks for themselves, and some will undoubtedly do so by substituting their religious beliefs for scientific ideas.

Time and again, science has shown that methodological naturalism can push back ignorance, finding increasingly detailed and informative answers to mysteries that once seemed impenetrable: the nature of light, the causes of disease, how the brain works. Evolution is doing the same with the riddle of how the living world took shape. Creationism, by any name, adds nothing of intellectual value to the effort.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 08:03 am
@farmerman,
youir funny indeed and very very selective
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 08:22 am
Heres an example of twerked up logic. The article, written by a member of a Christian college club wants ID taught at UC Irvine because its a "Scientific discipline" , But it relys upon a god in the mix. Why aren't real science clubs calling for ID to be taught in biology and geology.

Quote:
Citing a lack of classroom discourse on intelligent design at the University of California Irvine – a highly regarded scientific research institution – a Christian student group recently brought in a scholar to discuss the merits of the controversial theory, which suggests an intelligence can be found in the blueprints of life.

“Intelligent design is a valid explanation that should be able to be freely taught on a scientific campus,” UC Irvine biomedical engineering major Daryl Arreza, 23, told The College Fix.

Arreza, co-president of Ratio Christi, the Christian apologetics campus group that sponsored the recent talk, said the lecture was needed to expose students to the theory of intelligent design, which is ignored in campus science classes.

“We hope people think, ‘How come we don’t hear about this in our classes?’” Arreza said.

Former UC Irvine Ratio Christi president and biomedical engineering graduate student Matt Wiersma, 22, told The Fix he believes students who enjoy scientific research would benefit from scientifically sound lectures on intelligent design.

“Lectures like these not only open students up to different points of view that they are not used to experiencing, but also show them why we are here,” Wiersma said.

The pro-intelligent design scholar who spoke at UC Irvine on Wednesday at the behest of a Ratio Christi told the audience that – despite what they may have heard to the contrary in many of their science classes – scientifically vetted evidence does indeed support the theory that life on Earth had help evolving.

The Center for Science and Culture-Discovery Institute scholar Casey Luskin told the 60 or so students and professors in the audience that the vast complexities of life back intelligent design theories, and likened believing in evolution to believing a computer or car formed itself over billions of years.

But Luskin added intelligent design is neither simply a negative argument against evolution, nor is it necessarily an appeal to a supernatural power, such as God.

Rather, he said, evidence found through the scientific method in biological complexity, paleontological fossil records, and systematics and genetics, offer proof that just as humans designed complex machines, so are life’s origins created by intelligent design.

“There is no physical or chemical law that dictates the ordering of your DNA,” Luskin said. “The base of biological systems is a language-based code in DNA, which is like a computer processing information.”

He also talked about how intelligent design explains systematics, saying complex parts of organisms will be reused in different organisms in a manner that may not match the nested hierarchy – which runs afoul of evolutionary biology. Luskin also tackled the topic of biological similarity. The Darwinian theory claims that functionally biological similarity, such as patterns in animal bone structures, results from common ancestry. Luskin said that’s only one explanation.

“Common design could be another explanation,” he said. “While human and ape DNA is said to be 99 percent similar, why couldn’t the cause of that be a common blueprint, because it is a useful design?”

Evolutionary relationships among a set of organisms, also called pro-evolutionary phylogenetic trees, were also tackled by Luskin.

“Pro-evolutionary phylogenetic trees are only as good as the assumptions they make,” Luskin said, stipulating that the groupings are more often conflicted than they are neat, which gives way to use of what he calls an escape hatch for evolutionary theory, horizontal gene transfer. “So the conclusion I see in this theory is that the cause of similar features in living things is common ancestry, except when it isn’t. So how do you know when common ancestry is really true?”

Luskin said he knows his lecture could be deemed controversial, adding that’s unfortunate.

“I think evolution should be taught, but intelligent design also has a place in discussion of our origins, and there should be full access to all scientific evidence on intelligent design as well,” he said.

Luskin added the lecture serves a secondary purpose, that being to support students such as Wiersma and Arreza, who desire a wider scientific discourse on the origins of life, a discussion that is unfortunately not often offered on a college campus.

“It is important to give students confidence they don’t have to be suppressed or bullied,” he said. “We want to equip them with as much information as possible so they can defend intelligent design scientifically.”

Luskin is an attorney with a B.S. and M.S. in Earth Sciences from UC San Diego and a law degree from the University of San Diego. He has expertise in both the scientific and legal dimensions of the debate over evolution and serves as the program officer in public policy and legal affairs for the Center for Science and Culture. The center is a program of the Discovery Institute, founded in Seattle in 1996, which supports research that both develops the scientific theory of intelligent design and challenges the neo-Darwinian theory.

While Luskin’s research originates in scientific development at the non-profit “think-tank,” Luskin also explores the impact of scientific materialism on culture and fights to give centers of education the scientific education needed to encourage academic freedom, allowing teachers to present the theory of intelligent design alongside the already accepted theory of evolution.

To that end, Luskin helps initiate campus clubs that offer resources to help teach intelligent design, and through the center he co-founded Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness (IDEA), grounded in the IDEA club he started as an undergraduate student at UC San Diego.

Luskin, in his lecture at UC Irvine, said the battle over talking about intelligent design on college campuses is largely a battle over academic freedom.

“The viewpoints of intelligent design are censored at universities, and if they are mentioned, they are talked about in a caricature,” he said. “I want to give you the scientific evidence so at least you can make up your own mind.”


THEY really don't censor ID at Irvine, Its actually taught in the philosophy dept an is a seminar series in the history of modern thought in America. Its just NOT taught in biology because it cannot be tested in any fashion that we know of.Most private colleges also have a version of ID thinking in their curricula.

farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 08:31 am
@farmerman,
One of Luskins lines
Quote:

Rather, he said, evidence found through the scientific method in biological complexity, paleontological fossil records, and systematics and genetics, offer proof that just as humans designed complex machines, so are life’s origins created by intelligent design.
There is NO evidence from the paleontological record nor genetics. In fact , quite the contrary, evolution os clearly concluded from objectively reviewing these data and evidence.
Fossil evidence is pinpointed now by looking at the times that an "intermediate" fossil form is required. Now we can actually pinpoint the geological age, the environment nd then start hunting. That's how Tiktaliik was found. Genetic data , compiled from controller genes can recreate early forms of a contemporary species by reactivating the specific gene or SNP gene and the controller gene , such as the SONIC (or DESERT)HEDGEHOG.

These cant be taught in religion classes for any good reason. Neither can evidence-free ID "beliefs" be taught in science (besides a Supreme Court finding)
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 19 May, 2014 08:40 am
@farmerman,
I can keep this kind of stuff up all day and not run out of information. And its all different.
For those unfamiliar with controller genes and the Sonic/Indian/and Desrt Hedghog genes (I think the comic book character was the source for this name). Heres a clip from Neil Shubin's bookYOUR INNER FISH

Quote:
When I talk to Creationists, I generally run into a lot of ignorance about how we “prove” evolution to be true. I think a lot of them really do believe that we invented the whole thing because we found some rocks that look like fish. Young Earth Creationists are a particularly funny bunch because they get so hung up on things like carbon dating. By raising the objections they do, they prove their own ignorance of not only evolution, but the scientific method itself. Today, I want to share with you what I think is one of the neatest mechanisms in embryonic development, and show you how it points squarely to shared evolution between humans and other animals.

In the 1950s and 60s, biologists John Saunders and Edgar Zwilling discovered something extraordinary. In species as diverse as whales, birds, and humans, developing embryos contained two tiny patches of tissue that seem to control the development of the appendages, whether they were flippers or wings or hands. Remove the tissue and development stops. Take tissue from one side of a growing wing and put it on the other and you get a “double wing” that mirrored itself on each side.

This “zone of polarizing activity” — or ZPA — remained a mystery until the 1990s, when three separate laboratories worked collaboratively to discover a gene in flies that made one end of the body develop differently from the other. They named this gene “hedgehog.” Before long, a version of the same gene was found in chickens. The scientists named this gene “Sonic hedgehog,” after the video game character.

Once the chicken gene had been found, it became a rather easy matter to look for it in other creatures. And guess what… All animals with limbs have it. In the developing embryo of every limbed creature on earth, the Sonic hedgehog gene literally controls what goes where and how it goes there. The ZPA is actually a patch of tissue in which this particular gene is active, regardless of what kind of animal embryo it is.

We have since discovered that Sonic is one of several dozen genes that work in conjunction to make limbs, and in every creature that has limbs, the DNA recipe is virtually identical. This points squarely to a common ancestor for all limbed creatures, but even more than that, it points to a common ancestor even farther back linking limbed animals to flies. This genetic mechanism is truly ancient.

But it goes even farther. As we all know, Evolutionary theory states that life began in the water and moved onto land. And as it turns out, experiments with sharks and skates have backed up that claim. Obviously, fins are very dissimilar to limbs. Other than the fact that they protrude from the torso, there really isn’t much we can find to suggest that limbs and fins have anything at all in common.

Shark fins have tiny cartilage skeletal rods, and all of them look essentially alike. Just from looking at them, it’s very hard to think of any reason we should expect them to form the same way as bony human hands. But sometimes nature surprises us. When scientists placed a tiny bead of mouse Sonic hedgehog in between several of the embryonic skeletal rods, guess what happened.

Yep. Shark fingers.

What a crazy thing, don’t you think? A warm-blooded, four legged live-birthing mammal with fingers and toes, and a shark with not a single bone in its body (remember, sharks have cartilaginous skeletons!), and yet, the genetic recipe for embryonic development is so similar that you can literally plug one into the other and it will still work!

Flies, chickens, humans, and sharks. It would be hard to find four more dissimilar animals, and yet, all of them use the same biological mechanism to become what they are. Once evolution discovered that it could build appendages, it didn’t need to invent them again. Instead, descent with modification worked on the core process for billions of years, creating staggering diversity, from insects to birds to mammals. But it never needed to change the formula that worked. Sonic hedgehog is the proof.

SOURCE: Your Inner Fish, by Neil Shubin, paleontologist and professor of anatomy.


 

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