132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 10 Apr, 2019 10:19 pm
@Leadfoot,
If you dont understand the bases by which chemical reactions occur how ya gonna make up any reasonable software?? I think you find that youd find youre doing a Miller Urey all over again (except with nothing but your worldview as "code").

Point at the sky with a spectrograph and using emission, transmission, or reflection means, xplain the presence of glycine(with some degree of competence plase)
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 10 Apr, 2019 10:42 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
The Miller-Urey experiment is often put forth as proof that 'natural' abiogenesis is possible
STill smackin BS I see. That initial xperiment put forth "evidence" that long chain organic chemicals can result . Many of these are associated with polymers that are also seen in biotice molculs, also many are NOT. Many larger organic chemicals can result and these can also be further reacted. Where the uneducated go with it is not Dr Miller's fault.



I submit that an organic chemist understands the process of chemical linkage and various reaction modes as part of their training and expeience. Setting up a "Computr code" to make a "Parade of Civilizations" is like any other brain-dead approach that Creationists say to try.
Since you dont understand the ground states, energy transfer and dont know a damn thing about what chemistry even does, what basis are you gonna use to build your "code"?? your just playing with yourself. Why not just train an organic chemist to st up the ground state conditions coding(at least he or she will understand th"rules" and characteristics of the reactions and chemical environments.
Gooness sakes Dobby, you try to put me down by your P/A inferences and "what I would say" in such or such a case. HOWVER, At least I dont go around exclaiming that I know anything about coding, you seem to have no limits to all your talents. Im amazed
You have to have some working intelligence to reactions and linkages.
Youre like the proverbial carpenter whose only tool is a hammer.



farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 10 Apr, 2019 11:23 pm
@farmerman,
Many organic chemical "packages" have been made by food or dy chemistry. The Germans were very good at "Bucket chemistry" where a dye or a flavor(both of which were found in nature) would be studied and the conditions of their formation would be duplicated in a lab. The name of the process for something like Glycine was often given to the guys who first isolated it in a lab and then studied until it could be created by natural processes(always a kick when that works because chemical patents were often money makers). Lotsa times the chemicals were discovered by accident and sometims by hard work rpeating the reaction of formation.

Understanding the reactions and recipes from one , led to discoveries of others. Most dyes were products of such work. Before organic dyes and food stuffs (In almost all cases ketones and their simple bipolar molecules were at the center of many of these reactions). Thus, as chemistry grew as a craft, some guys branched off and began looking at where do these chemicals occur on earth, or in space, AND HOWCOME??


I think we are still in a discovery stage. not a really competent prediction phase, although, we seem to learn new **** each day.

So please Dobby, dont try to ascribe some sense of " unknowable magic " onto molecular or biochem and separate it as a series of alchemy disciplines in the great science of chemistry. Youre just showing yer ignorance (defiantly so, may I add)


BTW, I checked a university chem library and there are many "SOftware driven" reaction trains used to duplicate **** like the Bucherer reaction in nature. The one I saw (Im following glycine) was part of an INTERDISCIPLANARY study , a very common multi tech approach at universities today
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 10 Apr, 2019 11:24 pm
@farmerman,
By the way, Im back from my two day Mooney trip to Eastport Me.
0 Replies
 
Helloandgoodbye
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 01:47 am
This guy explains it much better:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eW6egHV6jAw
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 08:11 am
@Helloandgoodbye,
Buying some more of Steve's snake oil are ya?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 11:53 am
@blatham,
Belgium? That explains the bit where he multiplied bread, fish and fries
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 01:43 pm
@nimh,
Particularly fries. His chums loved them. It's why he got invited to the parties down by the river where he'd also be enjoined to change the party-goers bowls of river water into wine. He was very popular. Still is today, I understand.
nimh
 
  2  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 03:32 pm
@blatham,
I've heard the only reason Muslims prefer Mohammed is because at least he didn't put mayonnaise on his fries.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 04:12 pm
@mystikmind,
Quote:
I noticed you did not exclude divine intervention for this experiment??

Did you not actually follow the conversation before posting?

Did I not say an 'all natural' experiment? And did you forget that the object of the experiment was to convince me that there was no intelligent designer involved? That would kind of defeat the object of the experiment, no?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 04:39 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
If you dont understand the bases by which chemical reactions occur how ya gonna make up any reasonable software?? I think you find that youd find youre doing a Miller Urey all over again (except with nothing but your worldview as "code").


You skipped actually reading the thread too, huh. I was suggesting that it be carried forward to where you claim it ends up - a living organism. (or as I've said several times, I'd settle for a functional protein)

But Why would I be motivated to do it? I try to avoid starting projects that have no plausible chance at success.

I was suggesting that scientists working in biochemistry do the programming (working with programmers) since as you claim, they know all the steps needed and they/you are the ones making the extraordinary claim that life will inevitably result (without a shred of evidence). Just use the speed of the computer to simulate the 13.78 B yrs since you claim that is the magic needed. Matter of fact, it's been done a number of times, but never with any success.

Here's another analogy that fits your absurd claim that there is no difference between chemistry and biochemistry:

It would be equally valid to say that there is no difference in electron activity in a TV or computer and the activity in a lightning strike. Yes, it's true, the electrons are behaving in accordance with exactly the same laws of electricity in both cases. The two are related in exactly the same way as chem and biochem are. But you wouldn't call a weather forecaster to fix your TV nor would you call a chemist to determine if you had a genetic cause for cancer.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 05:12 pm
@Leadfoot,
said simply by Naveed Sahid,

Quote:
Organic chemistry is (the) study of compounds (that) contain carbon as(the) key element, whether these compounds are present out side(of) the living organisms or in side.
Biochemistry is the study of chemical reactions taking place only in a living organism


Pretty much same laws and rules apply.I believe that Youre just thinking it too hard. I could make a pot doc organic chemist into a big time biochem researcher in a few months of learning several keys.(Mostly use of certain types of HR mass specs and where the restrooms are )

Vice versa with biochemists becoming good rsearchrs in product related org chem.. I dont think the same thing would apply between a atherman and a TV repairman.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 05:50 pm
@farmerman,
BTW, I dont think Ive EVER said that lif would "end up witha given train ofreactions" Im more excitd at the possibilities these very trains can unfold. How purines can be formed in the deepest space. and "do the compounds like diamino maleo nitriles" wind up as the glycine we see in stars. cause that would give us almost a "Dr Behe" train of events in a test tube that COULD lea to life. I believe, like many others that life originated in several stages that had NOTHING to do with RNA and DNA , and these were late to the game.

I find that fascinating but, BUT, it really has nothing to do with evolution. You wanna make it so, then you should go out and begin such a science that has a discovery basis and is fully falsifiable.




Right now you cant even come up with a plan of study to find what you are looking for.
Falsifiability of ID /Creationism is like J S HAldane answered when asked what "Would falsification of Creationism require to satisfy you that it was a fact"??


"Rabbit fossils from the pre Cambrian" he said, an smiled quietly.




As a final note. When I went away for a few days, I find it unneeded to play "catch up" since most threads take another different path here I may join up later. If its important to someone (as your chiding of nimh and me seems to imply). If it was really important, then just cut and paste the post and we will see it.





mystikmind
 
  1  
Thu 11 Apr, 2019 07:23 pm
@Leadfoot,
Sorry i should have put my (tongue in cheek) at the first line!
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 12 Apr, 2019 02:03 am
In the various explanations of the ORIGINS of life on the planet, we have science v Creationism. For the development of life after it first appears and "takes" on the planet we have

Evolution pure and simple

Creationism (both OEC and YEC)

Theistic Evolution (I include ID within that arena)

Panspermia (where the origin of life has been elsewhere an development on this planet thereafter has been evolution pure and simple).

Of these 4, only evolution (P&S) and Panspermia, have a means of providing evidence to their possibilities.Panspermia would obviously need lotsa meteoritic data and fossil evidence from other planets.









Helloandgoodbye
 
  1  
Fri 12 Apr, 2019 02:43 am
@farmerman,
Quote: Of these 4, only evolution (P&S) and Panspermia, have a means of providing evidence to their possibilities.

Says the religious extremist. No Bias in this statement at all🙄
Helloandgoodbye
 
  1  
Fri 12 Apr, 2019 04:49 am
A GIANT theory:
Pun intended😉

What was the pre-flood climate and world like?
(Global flood apx 4400 years ago)
Why did life grow so much larger than today?

Giant Mammals:
Giant rhinos, armadillos, 10 ft tall apes etc.
https://www.thoughtco.com/biggest-prehistoric-mammals-1093359

Giant Insects:
https://www.thoughtco.com/why-were-prehistoric-insects-so-big-1968287

Giant reptiles (Dinos):
Keep in mind allll the different varieties of Dogs....
What would a modern day Bearded Dragon look like if Inflated? The Ankylosaurus?
https://www.newdinosaurs.com/ankylosaurus/
Bearded dragons
http://photographyblogger.net/22-cool-pictures-of-bearded-dragons/

How bout Dilophosaurus? A modern day Basilisk?
https://www.newdinosaurs.com/dilophosaurus/

https://www.123rf.com/stock-photo/basilisk_lizard.html?sti=lpz53uvqt1961w5g6r|

Giant vegetation:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-before-trees-overtook-the-land-earth-was-covered-by-giant-mushrooms-13709647/

Giant Humans:
Genesis 6:4 ‘there were Giants in those days....’

https://biblehub.com/2_samuel/21-20.htm
‘...Giant man with 6 fingers and toes’
Polydactyly, a recessive gene?
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321607.php

Thoughts?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 12 Apr, 2019 06:16 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I believe, like many others that life originated in several stages that had NOTHING to do with RNA and DNA , ...

That is a good summation. A belief with zero evidence behind it.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 12 Apr, 2019 06:20 am
@mystikmind,
I missed your subtlty amidst farmer's blunt denialism : )
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 12 Apr, 2019 07:45 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
That is a good summation. A belief with zero evidence behind it
Of course, I just wanted to repeat what ID sounds like to those who are afraid of the word "belief".

The first evidences of life are mere C12 based carbon clumps without any remaining evidence of RNA or DNA maleonitriles, or purines pyrimidines, osteocalcin etc etc etc.(Stuff that explains why we call oil a "fossil fuel"
 

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