132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 10 Apr, 2016 10:46 pm
@Leadfoot,
To believe or not to believe in anything is based on the individual's subjective thinking.

To believe in any god is a belief based on faith, because nobody can prove their god exists. Faith = subjective belief.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 02:30 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Mutation may be dependent on random chance but evolution is not since it selects for what is viable.


This bears repeating. The creationist crowd love to trot out that "random" BS, apparently because they think it's a strong argument, but really because they are already committed to a deterministic point of view. Any mutation which is harmful will soon rid the world of its influence; any neutral mutation will reside, so long as it does not interfere in reproduction. Only those mutations which enhance reproductive success will be passed on. That's the very basis of evolution, that's what natural selection means.

The god botherers like to trot out such quips as "random mutation" and "it's only a theory" because they either don't understand the process, or they don't wish to admit to it.
Builder
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 02:59 am
@Setanta,
Mutation, whether through outside influence, or "random" DNA gambles, like dwarfism and albinoism, are nature's way of surviving any kind of cataclysm. If our current crop of narcissists decide to nuke eachother, then albinos are likely to be the only survivors, simply because they don't require vitamin D from solar activity.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 03:29 am
@Builder,
The most likely scenario is that a rogue state such as North Korea, or a rogue organization such as ISIS would make a thermonuclear attack. If common sense prevailed, not always a reasonable assumption when governments acr or react, we would not nuke either North Korea or Syria. The prevailing winds of the northern hemisphere would assure that the fallout from nuking North Korea would soon arrive in North America. We have too many important allies in the middle east to nuke any part of Syria. The appropriate response to a nuclear attack from the Loons in North Korea would be a conventional attack to take out Pyongyang, and whatever of their facilities which have been identified as the source of their nuclear programs--along with Kim's bunker if it has been located. The appropriate response to an Islamist attack would be an all-out ground attack. So far, the air attacks in Syria and Iraq have hurt ISIS pretty badly, despite the BS which they feed the press, and which the press idiotically reports as though it were plausible. That would be costly in American casualties, but would be rewarded with a high degree of success in crushing their operations.

As Sting observed in his 1985 song, the Russians love their children, too. It is unlikely that Russia would initiate a thermonuclear exchange, especially given that theirs is a kleptocracy, and they understand that they could not enjoy their ill-gotten wealth in the wake of such a war.

A full thermonuclear exchange would have a very high probability of wiping out most life on earth. The cockroaches might survive. I wonder what the odds are of a sentient, technological species evolving from irradiated cockroaches.
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 03:59 am
@Setanta,
I've started to worry about the possibility that the US and China will end up in a conventional war in coming years because of the potential lack of restraint of the future leaders of both countries. And then the possibility that this conventional war could escalate to a nuclear war once one side finds themselves losing conventionally.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 04:11 am
A report to the Senate in, i believe it was 2009, estimated the Chinese nuclear arsenal to contain 100 warheads which can be delivered by ballistic missile, with some dispute about whether or not China has a reliable ICBM inventory (the dispute involves the boosters China uses for its space program). The United States currently has almost 5000 warheads, with thousands more scheduled for destruction, but which have not yet been dismantled.

I suspect the Chinese also love their children. I don't think they're stupid, either. Of course, many conservatives love to imagine a scenario in which the United States would go to war against those godless Chinese communists.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 05:15 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
To believe in any god is a belief based on faith, because nobody can prove their god exists. Faith = subjective belief.
But since you said belief is subjective, then your belief is based on faith as well. You cannot prove there is no intelligent intervention required in evolution, so what makes your faith more credible in this matter than mine?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 05:30 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
A report to the Senate in, i believe it was 2009, estimated the Chinese nuclear arsenal to contain 100 warheads which can be delivered by ballistic missile, with some dispute about whether or not China has a reliable ICBM inventory (the dispute involves the boosters China uses for its space program).

I'm not terribly eager to see the results of 100 thermonuclear explosions over US targets.


Setanta wrote:
The United States currently has almost 5000 warheads, with thousands more scheduled for destruction, but which have not yet been dismantled.

Counting the ones in storage. Deployed warheads are a lot less.

Though there is no disputing that we could launch a devastating nuclear attack if we found ourselves in the midst of a nuclear war.


Setanta wrote:
I suspect the Chinese also love their children. I don't think they're stupid, either.

There is a reason why we always avoided a direct conventional war with the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Once a nation is committed to a war, it becomes very difficult to not escalate if they find themselves losing badly.

It also doesn't have to be the Chinese who escalate. You never know how a war will turn out. The US could find ourselves on the losing end.

And we've just developed a brand new tactical nuke with very low yields and extremely high precision, the perfect "usable nuke" for escalation from conventional to nuclear war:

http://fas.org/blogs/security/2013/09/b61-12holland/
http://fas.org/blogs/security/2013/10/b61-12hearing/
http://fas.org/blogs/security/2014/01/b61capability/
http://fas.org/blogs/security/2014/02/b61-12pictures/
http://fas.org/blogs/security/2014/03/b61-12integration/
http://fas.org/blogs/security/2014/04/b61-12features/
http://fas.org/blogs/security/2015/11/b61-12_cartwright/
http://fas.org/blogs/security/2016/01/b61-12_earth-penetration/


Setanta wrote:
Of course, many conservatives love to imagine a scenario in which the United States would go to war against those godless Chinese communists.

As I said, with a foolish leadership in both countries, we could find ourselves in a conventional war.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 05:47 am
I have absolutely no reason to subscribe to your blood-thirsty fantasies, and the notion of anyone, even that jackass Trump, being so stupid as to start a war with the world's most populace nation, thousands of miles away across the Pacific, is laughably absurd. The Chinese simply don't have the military resources to invade the United States.

But you love to daydream about sh*t like this, don't you.
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 06:12 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I have absolutely no reason to subscribe to your blood-thirsty fantasies,

What fantasies are these?


Setanta wrote:
and the notion of anyone, even that jackass Trump, being so stupid as to start a war with the world's most populace nation, thousands of miles away across the Pacific, is laughably absurd.

Who says Trump would choose to start it? Sometimes wars happen not because a country chooses to start it, but because no country is wise enough to avoid it.

Which country started WWI?


Setanta wrote:
The Chinese simply don't have the military resources to invade the United States.

What does that have to do with anything?


Setanta wrote:
But you love to daydream about sh*t like this, don't you.

I think you misread my post. I clearly stated my view that it would be preferable to avoid a nuclear war.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 06:27 am
I didn't mention nuclear war in that post--you tip your hand. Too bad you won't keep your sick fantasies to yourself.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 06:45 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Can't blame you for thinking she was more likely than random chance. That IS your alternative that you take seriously.

You're right, magic is definitely the answer. Those scientists are morons, all they ever do is sit around and study stuff. Idiots. I can tell you're the kind of guy who likes to do it right, you go home at night, read a couple astrology books or maybe an ancient religion or two, then roll those chicken bones and dance around the fire, whooowee, now that's how you come up with a real theory.
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 06:46 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I didn't mention nuclear war in that post--you tip your hand.

What was it that tipped my hand? Was it the part where I directly stated that I was worried about the possibility of it happening?


Setanta wrote:
Too bad you won't keep your sick fantasies to yourself.

What is this fantasy nonsense? When you talked about a nuclear attack by North Korea or Islamic State, were you indulging in a sick fantasy?

In any case, too bad indeed. I deem the risk dangerous enough to merit public consideration, so I am happy to openly post about my concerns.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 06:50 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I think you misread my post. I clearly stated my view that it would be preferable to avoid a nuclear war[/b[/i]].s (emphasis added


I did not mention nuclear war in my post--you're starting to lose it, you can't even keep track of the discussion. With your fantasies of bloodshed and destruction, you really are a sick individual.
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 06:56 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
oralloy wrote:
I think you misread my post. I clearly stated my view that it would be preferable to avoid a nuclear war.s (emphasis added

I did not mention nuclear war in my post

So what?


Setanta wrote:
--you're starting to lose it, you can't even keep track of the discussion.

No, I'm well aware of the conversation. I'd prefer to not have a nuclear war, and for some inexplicable reason you find that objectionable.


Setanta wrote:
With your fantasies of bloodshed and destruction, you really are a sick individual.

"What is this fantasy nonsense? When you talked about a nuclear attack by North Korea or Islamic State, were you indulging in a sick fantasy?"
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 06:57 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
You're right, magic is definitely the answer. Those scientists are morons, all they ever do is sit around and study stuff. Idiots. I can tell you're the kind of guy who likes to do it right, you go home at night, read a couple astrology books or maybe an ancient religion or two, then roll those chicken bones and dance around the fire, whooowee, now that's how you come up with a real theory.
Sarcasm works only when it is based on your opponent's actual position. This one is a 'Fail'.

I noticed you wisely didn't try to deny that random chance is an absolutely necessary component of evolution as some others try to do. Kudos for that.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 07:01 am
@oralloy,
I wrote a post about the prospects of conventional war with China, which i consider to be practically nonexistent, for reasons of logistics. You respond by babbling about nuclear war. That was not germane to the content of my post. You con't seem able to keep track of a conversation. When i did mention notional nuclear attacks on the United States, i wasn't talking to you. Mind your own f*cking business.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 07:04 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
I noticed you wisely didn't try to deny that random chance is an absolutely necessary component of evolution as some others try to do. Kudos for that.

Much like Mary Poppins, you take yourself too seriously. And Parados is already dealing with your specious arguments on random chance, so I didn't have to waste my time on that Wink
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 07:09 am
@rosborne979,
I must have missed Parados's 'argument' on random chance. I have him on ignore for gratuitous name calling. Is that the caliber of argument you endorse?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 11 Apr, 2016 07:12 am
@rosborne979,
Went back and found it & unmasked..

Parados said:
Quote:
Mutation may be dependent on random chance but evolution is not since it selects for what is viable.


I don't see where he denied the role of random chance. He tried to hopscotch around it by the false statement. If evolution is dependent on selecting changes that random chance generates then it it totally dependent on random chance.

No random chance, no evolution.
 

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