132
   

Why do people deny evolution?

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2015 05:01 pm
@farmerman,
I tink it teery. No one going say I monkee. Quite the contrary. I am created from scratch in His Divine Image. I already feel tender in the shoulder blades, where angel wings grow after you die and go to Heaven.
0 Replies
 
martinies
 
  0  
Mon 27 Apr, 2015 08:21 pm
@parados,
If you could speed up time like you can a movie film it would be very easy to see that death of individual forms is shaping the natural moving event to the convienience of the environment. Death represents the stationary element.
martinies
 
  0  
Mon 27 Apr, 2015 08:49 pm
@martinies,
God is the stationary element in evolution and moving things.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2015 09:02 pm
*cough*
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/11159971_10152772100598144_2956748944181476325_n_1.jpg
Herald
 
  -1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2015 10:20 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
*cough*http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/11159971_10152772100598144_2956748944181476325_n_1.jpg
     You have the evidence - this is the evidence that you are totally deranged ... in any understanding of the world.
FBM
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2015 10:30 pm
@Herald,
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/Potmeetkettle.gif
martinies
 
  -1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2015 11:33 pm
@FBM,
No fbm . There is a stationary consciousness in ya brain. Its the real you.ha
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 03:57 am
@farmerman,
I said: "I'm thinking of evolutionary theorists like Kimura (and his successors) and Lynch (the prominent population geneticist from Indiana U)." This link is to a speech which Lynch gave to the National Academy of Sciences in 2007, entitled "The frailty of adaptive hypotheses for the origins of organismal complexity." A few excerpts:

Quote:
The vast majority of biologists engaged in evolutionary studies interpret virtually every aspect of biodiversity in adaptive terms. This narrow view of evolution has become untenable in light of recent observations from genomic sequencing and population-genetic theory....

For the average person, evolution is equivalent to natural selection, and because the concept of selection is easy to grasp a reasonable understanding of comparative biology is often taken to be a license for evolutionary speculation....There is, of course, a substantial difference between the popular literature and the knowledge base that has grown from a century of evolutionary research, but this distinction is often missed by nonevolutionary biologists...

The literature is permeated with dogmatic statements that natural selection is the only guiding force of evolution, with mutation creating variation but never controlling the ultimate direction of evolutionary change...religious adherence to the adaptationist paradigm has been criticized as being devoid of intellectual merit (35), although the field of molecular evolution has long been obsessed with potential for the “nearly neutral” accumulation of very slightly deleterious mutations...

It is impossible to understand evolution purely in terms of natural selection, and many aspects of genomic, cellular, and developmental evolution can only be understood by invoking a negligible level of adaptive involvement...Because the forces of mutation, recombination, and genetic drift are now readily quantifiable in multiple species, there is no longer any justification for blindly launching suppositions about adaptive scenarios...

The hypothesis that expansions in the complexity of genomic architecture are largely driven by nonadaptive evolutionary forces is capable of explaining a wide range of previously disconnected observations...However, simply making the counterclaim that natural selection is all powerful (without any direct evidence) is not much different from invoking an intelligent designer (without any direct evidence).


http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl_1/8597.full

You said:

Quote:
As I recall, evolution first occurs individual by individual and most evidence shows that most all evolution is adaptive. NOW if you can provide supportive evidence how natural selection does NOT occur, youd have a paper there.


Whereas you look for proof that virtually all evolutionary change is NOT adaptive, Farmer, this guy turns the tables and asks for evidence that it IS. He even compares such a claim to intelligent design theory, eh?

Needless to say, the evidential burden is always on those promoting a claim. It is not up to anyone who hears the proposition to disprove it. Yet panadaptionists seem to take this view--i.e., unless and until YOU can disprove MY claims, they must be taken as true.

That said, if you're looking for evidence to the contrary, read the link (and there are many more like it, if you want more).
layman
 
  0  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 05:03 am
@layman,
I'm kinda curious to see if you are going to be able to read Lynch's mind (as you appear to have read mine) and discern that he is a creationist, as you appear to have concluded about me on multiple occasions.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 05:18 am
@layman,
I think that the proteomics guys like Lynch have tried to expand an oservation at the cellular level and want to make it a "rule"

Evolution has, for years, recognized non -adaptive (non nat selection means of speciation and evolution).

genetic drift, founder effects, endemism (maybe a half and half thing) "bottleneck " and populational culling, allopatric speciation, Hardy Weinberg expansion of non-evolving populations, gene flow, geographic isolation . All these are recognized evolution mechanisms that are non nat se;ection. BUT, theyve been studied and evidenced pretty well.

the arm waving in the proteomics ring needs to be producing some good field work and available evidence that can be fit into a "biological xplanation of everything"

I still have to be convinced on the population dynamics that initiate large scale evolutionary developments. Even the cichlids Ive mentioned before, when isolated , had still developed large pools of varietals that seemingly have adapted to microniches in their isolate environments.

I think that Lynch and some of the other proteomics guys should spend time with Carroll and Shubin and some other paleontology types to discuss what we can learn from the fossil record that documents " when environments attack" .


So were at an impasse? I dont buy assertive science sans good evidence , Ill reserve any opinions (especially of I can use em in my craft). SO FAR though, key index fossils that are indicators of resource pools, strongly evidence adaptive means or evolution.

The problem with biological "bandwaggoning" is that theres always going to be a set of variable conditions that will counter the assertions.




.

layman
 
  0  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 05:30 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Evolution has, for years, recognized non -adaptive (non nat selection means of speciation and evolution).

You say this as though it is significant, Farmer, but I can only read your evaluation of it in light of your previous assertion, to wit:

Quote:
As I recall, evolution first occurs individual by individual and most evidence shows that most all evolution is adaptive
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 05:36 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I dont buy assertive science sans good evidence...


You don't? Coulda fooled me.

Quote:
key index fossils that are indicators of resource pools, strongly evidence adaptive means or evolution., strongly evidence adaptive means or evolution.


Really? Care to explain just how "key index fossils that are indicators of resource pools" (whatever that means) provides STRONG evidence of adaptive evolution?

martinies
 
  0  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 06:02 am
@layman,
Amoeba death death death >death a million times >death death then man.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 07:32 am
@layman,
Actually it is your claim...

Quote:
How did some (hinted at, but not stated) recessive gene last tens of thousands of years without also being present in all prior generations? Any analysis of this being offered? Uhhh, no.


The work talks about evolutionary biology being the cause of the pathology. You have assigned a recessive gene to that pathology when you stated it wasn't analyzed. Ergo you have made the claim that evolutionary biology requires a recessive gene. If you are not making that claim than you are simply making an idiotic statement that is no better than wondering why Einstein didn't include unicorns in his theory.

I am sure you won't bother explaining it again because you can't explain it without contradicting yourself.
parados
 
  2  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 07:33 am
@martinies,
No, you would simply see the 2nd law of thermodynamics at work.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 07:49 am
@layman,
shows youre not past reading wiki posts eh?

Ive "read your mind" because of the "code phrases" youve posted .
Such as
"A dog is still a dog"

"Its just a theory""

"how can you tell adaptation from fossils"

When I hear quacking, I think its a DUCK!!.

You also said something about lacking transitional fossils (sounded like you denied their very existence)

If youre in a related field, Ill discuss. If youre just trolling for counter arguments ,, no thanks


If a specific fossil defines a rock unit (by virtue of a sedimentary environment that is easily interpreted), and the rock unit supplies resources, AND we can use this same, fossil/environment/resource interpretation ALL OVER THE PLANET , that sorta pins it neh?


Quote:
You don't? Coulda fooled me.
Thats pretty lame. You have been asserting your points based solely on stuff youve clipped and highlighted, with no real evidence that youve even considered any way of thinking other than one.
Ive been pretty open and honest about evidence. Im pretty much on record for what I can evidence.

Youve ignored all the NON-adaptive modes as if I never mentioned them, (YET you seem to be stuck totally in the microbiological world based only on what youve read in clips).


Quote:
provides STRONG evidence of adaptive evolution?
Ive done that several times. YOU provide ANY evidence of support for your cut and pastes.


layman
 
  0  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 09:37 am
@parados,
You can't read. Well, more like you cannot comprehend what you read, even if it's explained to you in simple terms 100 times. I've seen this before, of course.

When are you going to pay the bet you lost, welcher?
parados
 
  1  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 09:45 am
@layman,
Of course I can't read because that is the only way you can pretend you win. Rolling Eyes
hingehead
 
  2  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 12:18 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Coulda fooled me.

yes, it does seem highly probable, if not certain.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Tue 28 Apr, 2015 12:23 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Of course I can't read because that is the only way you can pretend you win.


If you could, you might understand what a scientific hypothesis entails (which you obviously do not). Speaking of "pretending to win," when are you going to pay, welcher?
 

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