A limit to understanding ?

@fresco,

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Who, not what . The "what" is defined by the "who".

Not if the What created the who.

Are you a Pagan fresco?

I don't mind "confusing" psychology and sociology. Are you a Pagan taxonomist?

Engineering has a instinct component before the intent. To build a ladder to the stars, for example. Or does it? Islam closes off the sky even to the extent of refusing direct sunlight. The Asian wanders aimlessly in soft focus perspectives. The Christian reaches for the heavens and celebrates the light. And invents Science.

The US it seems to me is becoming anti-Christian and we are following. I suppose all countries which import US culture are also.

The reason I think is that Christianity recognises human imperfections and they are anathema in the US where everybody is wonderful and has no imperfections. Devices that allow us to be lazy are advertised in all action settings. A coach drive from London to Bath in the 18th century, which was non-stop action all the way. In a motor car people have to be shown how not to go to sleep at the wheel on such a journey and it is only two hours or so.

How can nations which indulge, wallows even, in orgies of pride, lust, sloth, envy, gluttony etc etc, I can't remember the others but that lot will do for now, be anything other than anti-Christian?

Are you as diplomatic as that, old boy, at your philosophy meetings?

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@fresco,

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The quest for a TOE is likely to give rise to potentially useful data irrespective of the viability of the goal. Is there not a saying to the effect "the journey is more important than the destination" ?

Why yes of course Fres, that's approximately what I meant, or at least thought I was saying. My apologies if I wasn't clear

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As for the relationship between "language" and "thought" some researchers (Sapir and Whorf) have argued that they are inextricable

Why yes, again, surely. Did you interpret my posting otherwise

....or are you simply agreeing with me

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In short, it may be that we can never epistemologically transcend the limits of our physiology/neurology.

Quite true Fres but if we allow ourselves speculation, however seemingly at Philo's extremity, we might at least skirt The TOE, gaining valuable insight

Reviewing your post I'm more certain you meant to buttress my position tho I couldn't believe it, so rare an occurrence hereabout

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@fresco,

Quote:

Is there not a saying to the effect "the journey is more important than the destination" ?

If there is it's a load of bullshit. Do the lions think the catching of a doe-eyed gazelle, a journey similar in some respects to our preparing for our entrance into a restaurant, is more important than eating it which then allows them to scratch and yawn and sleep for the rest of the day.

Isn't cheap airline travel designed to retain as much cash in hand for the destination as possible. Most of the travelers would be prepared to sit on the floor for another tenner off. Those seats are pretty heavy for a start. I've been on trains and buses where sitting on the floor was a luxury.

If it concerns foreplay Dr Hfuhruhurr kicked the idea out of the ground years ago.

One might easily suspect, fresco, that you are in favour of dragging out the journey to human perfection for as long as possible. And with the Church having given you a flying start in a mere 1000 years.

I often wonder what those who are fond of sticking it up the Church, which must be the softest target ever invented, would have done had they had a voice in the Church in those years.

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@spendius,

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Do the lions think...

No !

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I've been on trains and buses where sitting on the floor was a luxury.

It would be if you think with your backside ! Smile

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the journey to human perfection

...As mythical as the TOE

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sticking it up the Church

All absolutist claims for "Truth" are reflections of a psychological need to insulate the human psyche from the high probability of its cosmic insignificance.

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@fresco,

If you care to look at the first message I placed on A2K you will see what I think of my cosmic significance.

My profile is nothing like yours fresco.

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...As mythical as the TOE

You're a pessimist are you?

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Actually, chimps can do algebra and mathematics. They can even speak sign language.

Anyway, yes there is a limit to human understanding. For instance, we cannot imagine what it would be like to see in four dimensions. We can never know what it's like to experience someone else's thoughts and feelings. We cannot fully comprehend the massiveness of space, and our tiny tiny position within it...

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@Frank Apisa,

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There is a great deal more to why the true nature of the REALITY of existence is not "available" to us than the difficulties with language.

True Frank, though one aspect of language that limits our ability to comprehend the Universe is its dualistic quality. Necessarily for instance we establish an absolute linguistic distinction between the concrete and the abstract, limiting to some extent our ultimate comprehension

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@fresco,

Quote:

I am suggesting that the quest for a ToE (Theory of Everything) is futile….

Doesn't this viewpoint however somewhat limit our strivings. Tho we might never fully grasp a TOE, the more we learn the better we can dance around it

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@timur,

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Did it ever happened to you to have some thoughts that were so different from your language scope that you could never formalize them?

Indeed Tim, well put

…rather parallel with my message to Frank above

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@fresco,

As much as I am in awe of our ability to "understand" the universe, I believe that this ability is limited, and if we never rise above where we now stand, we will never understand it all.

I'm confident that we will rise though because we have opened the door to the transcendence of our our biological limitations.

We will, eventually, merge with our machines and in this way exponentially expand our understanding.

There are many that find such a notion to be disconcerting or even abhorrent, but why should we be repulsed by humanity taking the full benefit of its creations?

By the time this transcendence is realized, we will not be seeing "machines" as we see them now.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

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but why should we be repulsed by humanity taking the full benefit of its creations?

It might be because we don't know what "full benefit" means.

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@spendius,

It's hard to imagine that anyone is repulsed by what they don't know, and so I can only assume that they have concluded that they, in fact, think they know what "full benefit" means.

I can easily imagine that a great many pre-historic humans would find our modern life-style repulsive rather than wonderful, and not because they were lowly, ignorant savages.

We will move to a time of merging with our machines over time. It isn't going to happen tomorrow and by the time it arrives, we will accept it as inevitable advancement.

This doesn't mean, of course, that there will not be those who fight it every step of the way, or that it can't result in a dystopic world as depicted in The Matrix or Terminator, but short of a man-made or cosmic extinction event, it is ineviable, and if I'm wrong, then it will mean the eventual extinction of humanity. Whether as noble savages or incrementally more knowlegable humans, we can't live on Earth forever.

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@fresco,

true

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Put crudely, the Big Bang model implies that all of what we conceive of as material, energy, and even space-time suddenly appeared in what we measure as about 13 billion years ago. Irrespective of the status of Big Bang as an accepted model, does my emphasis of the words about what appears to us suggest anything more than we should be cautious in accepting any scientific paradigm such as Big Bang as being more than temporally useful in what we call “our understanding”?

Our understanding of the Universe is changing all the time , and quite frankly there are many brillant people out there that have different versions of the Universe . The mainstream , Big Bang is an old theory .

For instance , on You Tube , look up David Lapoint . Fascinating stuff . Much different take on the Universe .

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@north,

So are you agreeing that any model only has temporary epistemological status ?

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

So are you agreeing that any model only has temporary epistemological status ?

Not any . At some point we will have a solid understanding of any ology.

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@dalehileman,

One snowflake said to another:
"It's amazing that conditions were perfect to crystallize into us"

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

I am suggesting that the quest for a ToE (Theory of Everything) is futile and that all we can expect is continued expansion of our prediction and control practices.

I disagree completely. The reason in my opinion why we have not bridged the gap with a theory that explains these two drastic theories is probably because there is an in between factor that we can not see. When I say "see" here I mean a method by which to formulate the equation that solves the gap.

I think of it a a twist in the formation. Where there isn't a direct straight link between the micro to macro theory but instead a quick subtle twist. That's difficult to compute or quantify.

The best way it has been explained is using the concept of pixels. They are tiny squares of a single color but when placed together give the impression of a larger image.

If you zoom in on one pixel you can't see the relevant picture anymore. That pixel defies the image because its a solid single color. But the image isn't a solid single color. (Although it could technically be but for argument and anology here its not.)

But how do you measure the importance of each pixel to the picture? You can't! Because you can technically continue to reduce a single pixel into more. Adding more pixels don't change the larger picture, it may only become "sharper".

I think the problem is that we are focussing too much on the question, when does a pixel cease being a pixel and is absorbed into the larger picture?

It happens quickly and subtle. I bet a billion future dollars this word usage will be used when they finally build that bridge.

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@Krumple,

Nice analogy !
....but since you refer to 'word usage' you might bear in mind Bohr's statement that 'use of language' at subatomic levels of analysis could only be classed as 'poetic'.

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@fresco,

Limits and datedness = absolutely. With the vodka, oh god no!

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A limit to understanding ?

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