Craven de Kere wrote:There are, indeed, nations that do not have guns and that have virtually no violent crimes.
And there are nations who do not have guns and that have much higher homicide rates than the US.
Some statistics
This one is sorted by homicide rate
Throw in some of the African countries (like Rwanda) and you would probably see a very high homicide rate with no gun ownership. It would also be interesting to see statistics for Iran and Iraq.
Foxfyre wrote:On the other hand, I believe the Swiss are very heavily armed and have virtually no violent crime. I'm not sure there is a correlation between crime and the number of guns present.
This is a steadily going on hoax - Switzerland has the same gun laws like any other European country.
Gun ownership in Switzerland
Weapons and ammunition are routinely issued to, and kept at home by, Swiss men aged between 20 and 42 for their military service. The idea of having guns at home is tied to the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland fairly quickly, so every reservist had to be able to fight his way to his regiment's assembly point.
There had been a huge gun massacre inside the chamber of the regional parliament in Zug in September 2001, killing 14 and injuring 14 others.
Tarantulas wrote:
And there are nations who do not have guns and that have much higher homicide rates than the US.
Which indicates that guns in and of itself is not the sole cause of crime. Most regognize the large role societal differences play and do not attempt to make apples and oranges comparisons.
They'll, for example, compare the rates in the "developed" world.
Foxfyre wrote:On the other hand, I believe the Swiss are very heavily armed and have virtually no violent crime. I'm not sure there is a correlation between crime and the number of guns present.
Yes, there is
a correlation. No it is not the
sole influencing factor. Population density and proximity as well as other societal factors like rule of law and poverty all influence crime.
Following an article from the INDEPENDENT, which isn't free online. (Therefor, and because I couldn't find the survey on the EU pages, I copied it.)
Quote:The figures which show Europe's gun culture rivals US
Stephen Castle, The Independent, 02 Jul 2003
Europeans own a total of 67 million registered guns, according to a new survey, which argues that some nations have developed a gun culture that bears comparison with the United States.
The report highlights recent incidents of mass shootings and political assassinations, raising questions about the increasing availability of firearms in Europe and their use.
"Contrary to the common assumption that Europeans are virtually unarmed, an estimated 84 million firearms are legally held in the 15 member states of the EU. Of these, 80 per cent - 67 million guns - are in civilian hands," the report states. But the Small Arms Survey also concludes that the gun culture varies enormously between European nations, and does not pinpoint any overall trend in behaviour in the EU.
The document reflects the fact that, throughout the continent as a whole, the situation has improved and that the end of the war in the Balkans leaves Chechnya as the only major ongoing conflict.
But in some EU countries, domestic gun ownership is surprisingly high. According to Aaron Karp, co-author of the report: "Citizens of most European countries are more heavily armed than they realise, with an average of 17.4 guns per 100 people in the 15 EU countries alone." While that falls a long way behind the US, which is "fast approaching a statistical level of one gun per person", Germans are buying almost as many new firearms per capita as Americans.
Finland, with its strong hunting tradition, has the most legally registered guns in the EU at 39 per 100 people, the UK has 10 - one third of the German and French figures - and the Netherlands has two. Gun laws are tightest in the UK, the Netherlands and Poland, while France has more legal handguns than the Czech Republic, Denmark, Poland, England, Wales and Scotland combined.
Mr Karp said the assumption there is no overlap between European and American gun culture is misleading. "We have been acting as if this was a comparison between Mars and Venus, but that does not always hold. Many - but not all - countries of Europe have a strong gun culture," he said. He also highlighted the convergence between US and European problems in controlling illegal firearms - thought to exceed those that are registered - and of armed crime.
The report, compiled by an independent research project funded by 12 governments, stresses the diversity of different national law but points out that Germany and France do not have a tradition of tight regulation of firearms. Registration of new guns was only made compulsory in Germany in 1972 and in France in 1995.
It also highlights recent cases of mass murder in both nations: at a school in Erfurt, Germany, in April 2002, where 17 died and 10 were wounded, and in Nanterre, France, in March last year when eight people were killed and 12 wounded in an attack on a council building. In the 13 months before last October, 47 people died and more than 36 were wounded with privately held guns in mass shootings in France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland.
By and large, Europeans show a preference for rifles and shotguns over handguns. With the exception of France, handgun ownership is largely restricted to urban areas.
HOW THEY COMPARE
Firearm-related deaths (in 2000)
United States: 30,419 (11.3 per 100,000)
England and Wales: 159 (0.3 per 100,000)
Germany: 1,201 (1.5 per 100 000)
France: 2,964 (5 per 100,000)
Gun ownership per 100 inhabitants
United States: 83-96
European Union: 17.4
United Kingdom: 10
Do anyone of you feel that guns should be banned, if so why?
The purpose of a debate is to try to get the other guy to understand your viewpoint. Not to yell your opinion at each other. Here is a "gun nut" with my ears, and mind open (at least I believe my mind is open), let me know why you think / feel guns should be banned? Or do you know some one for me to PM and ask?
I believe certain bullets should be banned and some weapons should only be owned by a very, very few.
I didn't grow up with guns. I didn't know anyone who owned one until I was in my teens. I have shot a few guns in my life and appartently I have a pretty accurate shot. Would I own a gun - I can't say I've ever felt the need. Should there be gun control, yes.
However that being said... I haven't seen anything that has worked well. There are guns in the US that are banned, manufacturers tinker with design and market the newer model til it gets banned and on and on it goes. Guns should be registered like cars, children, marriages ect. but we shouldn't make it a punative process.
People should be sane to own a gun, unfortunatly this is the crux of the situation. While I'm happy to admit everyone I know who owns a gun is responsible, how do we account for the ease and accessability by which killers can get a gun. I don't know the answer. I would prefer a world with far fewer weapons, it's a pipe dream because in the not too distant future, I think an existance like mine will no longer be viable. I just wish people and groups who tow the NRA line would be a bit more reasonable in their stance. 'nother pipe dream....
emclean,
You are being misled if you believe that the concept of "gun control' means banning all guns from citizens. It doesn't, and very few people would want that. I know of nobody who advocates baning all guns.
Quote:emclean,
You are being misled if you believe that the concept of "gun control' means banning all guns from citizens. It doesn't, and very few people would want that. I know of nobody who advocates baning all guns.
Suzy I do not think that gun control means banning all guns, I am wondering about those people who advocate the banning of all guns.
Per capita, there are more gun owners in Canada than in the US. However, we have a mere fraction of gun-related deaths compared to the US. I suppose we're just smarter.
cavfancier wrote:Per capita, there are more gun owners in Canada than in the US.
I'd love to see a source for this.
Quote:However, we have a mere fraction of gun-related deaths compared to the US. I suppose we're just smarter.
See: population density and its effect on crime.
emclean,
I personally don't know anyone who fits that description. I believe that with every law, outlaws are created. Completely banning guns won't stop people who want them (to commit crimes) from getting guns, therefore, all citizens should keep the right to bear arms.
I agree, that is why I asked.
Quote:Do anyone of you feel that guns should be banned, if so why?
The purpose of a debate is to try to get the other guy to understand your viewpoint. Not to yell your opinion at each other. Here is a "gun nut" with my ears, and mind open (at least I believe my mind is open), let me know why you think / feel guns should be banned? Or do you know some one for me to PM and ask?
Quote:What is hard to understand about "i don't understand banning guns."?
I am asking a question, What do you believe will be accomplished by outlawing all firearms?
That is what I want to know.
Quote:What do you believe will be accomplished by outlawing all firearms? I do not want to flame you or insult your opinion, I just truly do not under stand what you are trying to accomplish, and how banning all guns would accomplish that end.
Please help me to at least see where you are coming from.
I am trying to find these things out, if there is none here that feel this way, then I say I'm sorry to you all. I run into a lot of people who tell me how great it would be to do, and I can't nail them down as to why. I was hoping to have better luck here.
Just think, if they banned guns, we couldn't shoot our computers...
how about you nuke it, just borrow one from Craven and...
Very few people actually advocate banning guns...
The fight is over stuff like this...
Liberals tried to pass a bill recently that said that guns cannot be sold at gun shows to people that don't even bother to present an ID. It was shut down by conservatives.
Why?
You sound like a reasonable person. What justification do you have for not atleast bothering to find out who the person is before being able to sell the gun to them. What if he is a criminal, wanted for a double homicide? Wouldn't you feel safer knowing that after he kills someone with the gun he bought at the gun show, the government would atleast be able to trace the gun back to him and stop him from doing it again?
Quote:Liberals tried to pass a bill recently that said that guns cannot be sold at gun shows to people that don't even bother to present an ID. It was shut down by conservatives.
Sold by whom? If I take my gun to a show I can sell it to anyone there, or I can sell it through the classified ads. If I buy from a dealer the only way they do not have to run me through the "insta-check" is if I have a valid concealed carry permit
Quote:You sound like a reasonable person. What justification do you have for not atleast bothering to find out who the person is before being able to sell the gun to them. What if he is a criminal, wanted for a double homicide? Wouldn't you feel safer knowing that after he kills someone with the gun he bought at the gun show, the government would atleast be able to trace the gun back to him and stop him from doing it again?
I would offer no justification, any person who buys a gun from a dealer has to show an ID, and fill out the yellow form, and for privet sales there are no requirements. I would love to see a way of verifying that a person is not bared form having a gun if I were the one selling.
I generally avoid gun discussions. My gut feeling is they should not exist. This despite the fact I served militarily and was prepared to kill in battle if called upon. This despite the fact I have close friends that own guns. This despite the fact I have been only moments away from the act of shooting someone. Guns are absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There are many instances of very good people carrying guns and not hurting anyone. There are plenty of tales of people saving loved ones' lives with a gun. For every positive tale there is at least one negative. Wyett Earp got to face them Clanton boys. Elliot Ness got to prevail. Moose got to die before their heads can get mounted in the den. I would like to be alive in some future age when the race has grown up and put away such things.
Well Edgar, they do exist and have for a long time. Trouble is, anything that ever gets invented tends to stay around just about forever.
Your issue with guns sounds like a lack of personal control. So, I would stress that you remain gun-free. You might want to lock up your swords too.
Mooseburgers. Yum.
