Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

@giujohn,

giujohn wrote:

I speak to the invention of these kooky beliefs at their inception rather than after their establishment.

Intelligent Design is just another form of Poofism. Irreducible Complexity however is an actual testable hypothesis... it's just that it never passes any tests. That having been said, the desire to find something which is Irreducibly Complex probably derives from people who are religiously motivated to disprove evolution.

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@rosborne979,

I agree. The poster child for Irreducible Complexity was the flagellum which has been conclusively shown to be an inccorrect assumption.

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@giujohn,

giujohn wrote:

why people are so scared at the possibility that the universe and it's it's begining was a totally random occurence and that man's existence is also the result of a random event.

This has nothing to do with scaredness. This random event is so highly improbable that it is virtually impossible. Math has nothing to do with scaredness ... and with the replacement the real issue with some red herring.

giujohn wrote:

I believe it is this fear that generates all the ridiculous notions of some sort of mystical/magical entity that controls every second of this existence.

Who said that somebody controls us ... and what is the problem for some higher ILF or Board of ILFs to control us ... which obviously and unfortunately is not the case, for if we have the math of our future development we will hardly do half of the things we are doing at present, inlc. without limiting to, all that talks about clean coal, safe cracking that turns the potable water into fuel, and that we will get out of the financial crisis any moment, etc. the only intention of which is not to do anything, not to do the things that obviously have to be done.

1 Reply

@giujohn,

giujohn wrote:

but rather it is the fear that things may be random

Part of the things are random and there are lot of other things that are neither random nor aimless. They look much more like methodological, pre-planned intelligent design.
Random is the event to cut a finger. The event of healing the wound is not random (when everything goes normally). Random is the dysfunction - some hemophilia or insulin resistance or local infection or whatever that would impede for the wound to heal.
If you think that the six poisons of Varan de Comodo are random event – think again. Can you prove that this species is able to survive with only one of these slow-acting complex poisons that act in combination only. Why did the second one 'appear' then, and the third one ... up to the sixth ... and how didn't 'the Casino' guess to make this anywhere else?

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

Quote:

That having been said, the desire to find something which is Irreducibly Complex probably derives from people who are religiously motivated to disprove evolution.

It might derive from common sense.

The desire to find something which is not Irreducibly Complex derives from people who are religiously motivated to prove evolution. They made it an issue at Dover when they tried to show that flagella were like foot pumps without allowing that foot pumps are irreducibly complex philosophically.

Something does not cease to be irreducibly complex because some goofball asserts he understands it.

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@spendius,

It's funny you would make such a statement as

Quote:

It might derive from common sense.

Quote:

com·mon sense
noun
good sense and sound judgment in practical matters.

Religious motivation has none of what can be determined as 'common sense,' because it relies on faith and nothing else! Has any of the billions of christians ever seen their god? If god's image is indeed a reflection of man, then he must have indeed raped virgin Mary to give birth to his son, Jesus.

If god has an ear, nose, eyes, a heart, stomach, feet, hands, arms, legs, toes, fingers, penis, and the human form, then common sense has been thrown out the window with the baby. Mr. Green

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@cicerone imposter,

You're the one who is drunk ci. On that heady brew of the contemplation of your own excellence and the desperate need to prove that Christian sexual rules are idiotic.

History shows that human beings, which only have similarities with animals biologically, have been unable to make any sense out of atheism. Common or otherwise.

Perhaps, when you lot have wiped out faith, science will be able to make sense of atheism but only, it seems to me, by socialistic compulsion. The compulsion being enforced by those who have faith in atheism being common sense but haven't the brains to decide, however ridiculous the decision, what should be compulsory. And the tension mounting.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I have already raised the idea that the Church referees evolutionary forces. Using a Sin Bin. And Red Cards.

But it seems to have passed you by. Refereeing rats fighting in a sack might help fix the idea a bit more.

Simply because you now employ the biggest rats to do the fighting for you does not mean that you a free to imagine you're not a rat.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Christian rules are idiotic! Most are against equality for gays and lesbians. They're behind the times of enlightenment.

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@spendius,

Nowhere does the bible mention "evolution." That's science that was brought to light in the 19th century.
What ever happened to the evolutionary process of homo sapiens? Did god create man when the heavens and earth were created, or did god experience the same evolutionary change as man?

Even the bible states,

Quote:

Bible Study ToolsVerses by TopicEvolution Bible Verses
Evolution Bible Verses

Bible Verses and Scriptures About Evolution - Read Bible scriptures relating to the topic of evolution, including verses about how God created all things. Find biblical answers to common questions about evolution, such as "did God create all things?" and more.

Use our Bible verses by topic page to quickly find scriptures about popular topics.

Genesis 1:31-31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.
Read Genesis 1 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
Genesis 5:1-3
This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man. " When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.

My opinion/question: If god made man in his image, what ever happened to the homo sapiens that first appeared?

Read Genesis 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
Psalm 8:4-6
what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet:
Read Psalms 8 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
Psalm 33:4-11
For the word of the LORD is right and true; he is faithful in all he does. The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea into jars; he puts the deep into storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him. For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm. The LORD foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Genesis 2:1-5
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-- and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,
Read Genesis 2 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

From Wiki.

Quote:

The advent of Homo was thought to coincide with the first evidence of stone tools (the Oldowan industry), and thus by definition with the beginning of the Lower Palaeolithic; however, recent evidence from Ethiopia now places the earliest evidence of stone tool usage at before 3.39 million years ago.[5] The emergence of Homo coincides roughly with the onset of Quaternary glaciation, the beginning of the current ice age.

And,

Quote:

3.6 Ma

Australopithecus afarensis
Some Australopithecus afarensis left human-like footprints on volcanic ash in Laetoli, Kenya (Northern Tanzania) which provides strong evidence of full-time bipedalism. Australopithecus afarensis lived between 3.9 and 2.9 million years ago. It is thought that A. afarensis was ancestral to both the genus Australopithecus and the genus Homo. Compared to the modern and extinct great apes, A. afarensis has reduced canines and molars, although they are still relatively larger than in modern humans. A. afarensis also has a relatively small brain size (~380–430 cm³) and a prognathic (i.e. projecting anteriorly) face. Australopithecines have been found in savannah environments and probably increased its diet to include meat from scavenging opportunities. An analysis of Australopithecus africanus lower vertebrae suggests that females had changes to support bipedalism even while pregnant.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Nowhere does the bible mention "evolution."

Jesus described the process although I have to admit He didn't use the word "evolution".

Quote:

That's science that was brought to light in the 19th century.

Rubbish. You're showing your complete ignorance. Empedocles had had the idea in 400 odd BC. It was in the intellectual air of Europe in the 18th Century.

I'm not reading that C&P job. I'll know it all anyway.

This is a more interesting take on the Bible--

Quote:

It is not too much to say that the works of Ibsen furnish one of
the best modem keys to the prophecies of Scripture.
Read the prophets, major and minor, from Isaiah to
Malachi, without such a key, and you will be puzzled
and bored by the almost continuous protest against
and denunciation of idolatry and prostitution. Simple-
tons read all this passionate invective with sleepy un-
concern, concluding thoughtlessly that idolatry means
praying to stocks and stones instead of to brass lectern
eagles and the new teredos presented by the local dis-
tiller in search of a title; and as to prostitution, they
think of it as "the social evil," and regret that the
translators of the Bible used a much blunter word. But
nobody who has ever heard real live men talking about
graven images and traders in sex can for a moment
suppose them to be the things the prophets denounced
so earnestly. For idols and idolatry read ideals and
idealism; for the prostitution of Piccadilly Circus read
not only the prostitution of the journalist, the political
lawyer,' the parson selling his soul to the squire, the
ambitious politician selling his soul for office, but the
much more intimate and widespread idolatries and
prostitutions of the private snob, the domestic tyrant
and voluptuary, and the industrial adventurer. At once
the prophetic warnings and curses take on meaning
and proportion, and lose that air of exaggerated
righteousness and tiresome conventional rant which
repels readers who do not possess Ibsen's clue.

From Bernard Shaw's Preface to the third edition of The Quintessence of Ibsen.

You possess no clue except a blind prejudice against a monumental structure for personal reasons which others prey on for pecuniary gain spoonfeeding you with soundbites whilst ducking all the serious challenges and never emerging from the shadows.

A 15% minority is worth capitalising. It's 45 million in the US alone.

1 Reply

@Herald,

The undeterminence and therefore randomness in the study of quantum mechanics as it applies in our universe is well documented and shown emperically,(not just mathmetically) to be not just probable but a fact. Extending this to the beginning of the universe as with say a fluctuation in the quantum foam would certainly be probable for the beginning of this universe.
Furthermore, the problem with with the belief in a ILF or board of ILFs (seriously?) is that if we are to make assumptions I would rather apply Occams Razor to the exercise than to speculate with fanicful abandon.

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@Herald,

My question is: What do you find "intelligent" in the "design" of Homosapien-sapien?

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@spendius,

You wrote,

Quote:

Rubbish. You're showing your complete ignorance. Empedocles had had the idea in 400 odd BC. It was in the intellectual air of Europe in the 18th Century.

Okay, what 'evidence' did he provide with his idea on evolution? Any statement made without one iota of evidence is worthless speculation. Darwin provided 'evidence.' What evidence did Empedocles provide?

Watch who you call 'ignorant.' Look in the mirror; you'll see a good example of ignorant.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

Something does not cease to be irreducibly complex because some goofball asserts he understands it.

Apparently you have not kept up on the research regarding this issue as it has been "put to bed". There is no Irreducible Complexity with regards to the flagellum.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

What evidence did Empedocles provide?

The idea doesn't need evidence it is so obvious. Doubters obsessively search out piles of repetitive evidence. A Darwin type could travel the world, abandoning those excitable Shropshire lassies for five years, to gather evidence that rain comes from clouds. Or that it goes cooler after sunset.

Darwin spent a lot of time with pigeon breeders who understood the process as easily as you understand that rain comes from clouds.

The only reason the subject is debated is because it seems, superficially, to some people, to undermine the Bible and through that the Church and through that the Church's sexual morality which they disagree with for reasons they are, in most cases, discreet about.

I have already cited Prof, Basil Willeys book Darwin and Butler and Spengler's evidence of the idea being in Schopenhauer and Buckle. And fm, when he returns, will clue you up on others before Darwin.

1 Reply

@giujohn,

Quote:

There is no Irreducible Complexity with regards to the flagellum.

I refer you to the quote of mine you have posted.

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@spendius,

You,

Quote:

The idea doesn't need evidence it is so obvious.

ROFLMAO You're a ******* joke! You are the joke. Mr. Green

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@spendius,

Well...I guess one mans "goof ball" is others professionally trained, and experienced, most probably peer reviewed, micro-biologist...

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@giujohn,

giujohn wrote:

The undeterminence and therefore randomness in the study of quantum mechanics as it applies in our universe is well documented

... and you have no evidences that the biocode is made out and as a result of the operation of the quantum mechanics. Not to say that you don't even have any evidences that even the Universe is made in that way.

giujohn wrote:

Extending this to the beginning of the universe

O.K., let's extend it. The quantum carrier of the electromagnetic field is the photon (from the gauge bosons), the carrier of the electric field is the electron (from the leptons) .. and the carrier of the gravitational field is something from the quarks perhaps ... we don't know, BUT we know more about the gravitational continuum and the Creation?! of the Universe (for the purposes of the Evolution theories) than the Universe has ever known about itself ... how does that happen?

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Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

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