32
   

Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

 
 
timur
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 12:29 pm
Farmerman wrote:
(I have no idea what the LD50's actually are but they can be looked up in any Tox text] .

Median lethal dose, LD50

Also, about mammals radio-resistance:

Quote:
Documented Results from Texas Tech’s Chernobyl Research
1. Observations by the TTU team do not indicate a reduced abundance of wildlife, but rather, a greater
number of individuals than is present in non-radioactive sites beyond the 30 km zone. Large
mammals, such as moose, roe deer, Russian wild boars, wolves, European badgers, and raccoon
dogs, are common in the most radioactive regions. In fact, the team has compared Glyboke Lake
and the Red Forest to a wildlife preserve, where the fauna is protected. Normal farming and
agricultural practices and other human impacts appear to be more detrimental to wildlife than the
world’s worst nuclear power plant disaster.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 12:35 pm
@timur,
excellent. See Herld. That kind of data is readily available and you've just shown your ignorance to anything NOT associated with ID "Science"

PS, I got clipped by time-out, an what you failed to post was the rest of my entire statement that you "quote mined" like some Creationist coward what I said was:

Quote:
Im sure, however, there are real scientists who are, in the back of their minds, making good arguments for design (like the concept of"Convergence" that I fed to Herald) and are looking for evidence for same. HOWEVER, to date, ID has come up empty lockered despite how much "research" they've claimed to mount.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 04:22 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
ID has come up empty lockered despite how much "research" they've claimed to mount.


That's because they are looking in the wrong place. The evidence for ID is them debating ID because without ID there would be no books and no science of unlimited dynamic space. Obviously no reserved parking space or key to the senior researcher's washroom either.

See cave paintings for what there would have been.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 04:27 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
without ID there would be no books and no science of unlimited dynamic space. Obviously no reserved parking space or key to the senior researcher's washroom either.


Sniffing the Saran Wrap again spendi? Those phthalates can burn yer little grey cells, like a turd in a forge
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 05:52 pm
@farmerman,
Stuck for words again eh?

Isn't it time you went for a haircut? Well--a snip round the edges from a temp. minion.
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 11:19 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
... excellent. See Herld. That kind of data is readily available and you've just shown your ignorance to anything NOT associated with ID "Science"

I was not asking about whether a deserted (abandoned by people) region could be inhabited by wildlife. I was aksing do you have any evidences about improved resistance to rediation as a result of inhabiting a region with increased radiation background (unfortunately it is not only Chernobil and Fukushima - there a are lot of other places where radio active waste is deposited on ad hoc basis).
Back to the evidences - like for example, 30 years ago the resistance of wolves to radiation was this and this, and at present it has been increased by 15% on the grounds of these and these evidences and data and calculations ... and there is no risk for them to mutate into some monsters out of control at some point in the future.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 04:03 am
@Herald,
You ask a question and are given examples of specifically relevant evidence. If you do not wish to accept such evidence, (and continue to merely miscast mine and others statements to comport with your worldview) just start with that as a given.

Quote:

I was not asking about whether a deserted (abandoned by people) region could be inhabited by wildlife. I was aksing do you have any evidences about improved resistance to rediation as a result of inhabiting a region with increased radiation background (unfortunately it is not only Chernobil and Fukushima - there a are lot of other places where radio active waste is deposited on ad hoc basis).

I gave you examples of Bikini atoll, Emiwitok, and several of the old Manhattan sites where radioecological studies have been going on for more than 40 years. In that time species adaptation due to radioresistance has been discussed widely in the literature. If you expect that Science Fiction"monsters" will automatically result from long term exposure, I will refer you to a science fiction thread.

Any of the sites where some mutations have been measured have been few and where adaptation occurs there usually was, at first, a severe "crash" of the populations and then a reemergence of an adapted species. or example , the story of bivalves at Bikini Island Atoll shows that certain species, after first declining, began to show a gradual increase in populations and the genetic studies showed very minor changes or absence of changes in genomes as these species adapted without any major mutations.

I had been part of several USA studies at places where the Manhattan disposal or transfer sites existed , and in the" Formerly Utilized Sites and the Uranium Mill Tailings"(FUSRAP and UMTRAP) where biologists, under contract to the DOE had been monitoring health and response data since the middle 1970's. I don't recall any species "mutational" data but I do recall lots of anecdotal reports of species adaptations without major genetic mutation.
Since most of these sites exist in the desert parts of the US wildlife reports are mostly trap, tag and release . You can go online and seek answers to any of this by just looking up the UMTRA and FUSRAP program information (most all of which is now public record).

Im certain youll just dismiss this and will only misquote me so I m wondering what the purpose of your communication is. I really don't believe that you've got any commitment to finding out the truth or to see any evidence that counters your worldview, but Ill keep trying. am sure others will also.

I see its more important to communicate to the kids who may frequent some of these threads with "OPEN" minds and no commitment to any credos or worldview. All I can do is try to be truthful about what I know and what I don't.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 05:47 am
@farmerman,
I think a behavioural scientist would dismiss the idea of kids with open minds. Certainly any coming on these threads.

You might define "open minds" as those similar to your own mind but then you would be in a circularity.
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 12:45 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
If you expect that Science Fiction"monsters" will automatically result from long term exposure, I will refer you to a science fiction thread.

... and I will refer you to read the results of the 216 nuclear weapon tests in the Pacific - Polynesia, from 1946 to 1962. You may read for example the report of the Natuonal Cancer Institute, issued in 1998.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 01:00 pm
@Herald,
IM THE ONE THAT TOLD YOU ABOUT THE BIKINI MONITORING PROGRAM> ILL READ THE CANCER INSTITUTE STUDY IF YOU READ BROOKHAVENS ENVIROMEnTAL AND BIOLOGICAL MONITORING REPORTS>

The entire Bikini Atoll area has been "depopulated " of humans before the tests. WE are seeing the adaptation of animals of all kinds
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 02:21 pm
@farmerman,
That proves nothing significant.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 02:46 pm
@farmerman,
If mind derives from matter,fm, is it not possible that matter has mind like some primitive religions thought? Sacred mountains, lakes and rivers. Gold.

Mount Vernon for example. The Hill.

"I can hear them tribes a-moaning,"

If you envisage a "gap" between mind and matter what adaptation would you suggest and if you say there isn't a gap then you're a fully-fledged, at last, bona fide materialist.

See if you can make it as stylish as Michelangelo's Finger of God.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 02:50 pm
@farmerman,
ctually, the (Castle Bravo) Bikini H bomb tests were initially dismal failures in the ability of the scientists and engineers to accurately compute the yields . (The yields of the first 2 bombs were several times greater than calculated because they got the contributions of isotopes of Lithium wrong.
Consequently they had two bombs of like 15 an 20 MEGATONS (oops). The trial repopulation of the islands in 1970 led to a couple of miscarriages and a baby that dies of rad poisoning (I believe) . REASON: the red crabs were able to adsorb the radiation and adapt, even though they were relatively "hot"
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 02:52 pm
@spendius,
Go tell it to the mountain old boy. You cannot put a scratch on a proper Christian.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 02:53 pm
@spendius,
I don't even bother with Christians, they've got no problems with me.

You are once again projecting spendi, poor baby.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 04:06 pm
@farmerman,
Don't wish to give the question a try even!! Eh??

You bother with Christians on these threads. Maybe just the ones who won't ask you that question. You deliberately set out to disrupt a religious meeting.

If you had bothered with one who did ask it you have had a long time to get a plausible answer together.

Such as we scientists don't as yet know the answer but we will find it one day if the funds are up-front. No amount of money will explain the "gap".

Or that matter might have vestiges of mind. Or does have would show more piety. You have tectonic plates lumbering about. Gases diffusing. Dilute liquids clambering through half a potato to get at stronger ones.

You could write a book exploring the idea. I only do songs. I know some of them are pretty awful but there it is.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 04:10 pm
@spendius,
Am I the only one to tell you that you are as nutty as a Lousiana Sweet Tater pie? (snepacs )
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 04:18 pm
@farmerman,
I have had one or two similar remarks flung at me in my time.

But still--there you have matter and then you have mind.
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 12:47 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
RE: mind & matter

Yes, I am also interested how will you explain this to S.
May I ask you a simpler question: Can you explain how does it happen that our body looks very much like a quantum mechanical bio-supercomputer, using trivial (and non-trivial) quantum mechanics phenomena to perform operations ... on living and non-living matter. How does that happen?
Even the water in our body is very much different from the water of the mountain stream.
... and I am very suspicious to the fables that you are telling us about adaptation to radiation. The very fact that some species manage to survive (for some time) in radioactive environment does not necessarily mean that they have adapted to it (and live there normal life ... and feel happy).
Do you know all the types or radiation impact mechanisms on living matter ... I doubt.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Dec, 2013 01:09 pm
@Herald,
Quote:
how does it happen that our body looks very much like a quantum mechanical bio-supercomputer, using trivial (and non-trivial) quantum mechanics phenomena to perform operations ... on living and non-living matter. How does that happen?


It DOES? Im not familiar with biomechanical quantum mechanical super computers, and how they zap living and non living matter [/quote]


Quote:
Even the water in our body is very much different from the water of the mountain stream.
Now theres a transition. Of course our bady's water isn't like a mountain stream, its like the ocean isn't it?

Quote:
The very fact that some species manage to survive (for some time) in radioactive environment does not necessarily mean that they have adapted to it (and live there normal life ... and feel happy).
I don't know about the happiness part but many fast breeding species in and around Bikini and Eniwitok have survived for hundreds of generations and the DNA mutation studies are going on as we speak. Im willing to wait . What happens if they've mutated and adapted and are "happy"?

Quote:
Do you know all the types or radiation impact mechanisms on living matter ... I doubt.
That's a fact. Im a geologist not a radiation health physicist. Are you a radiation health physicist. I have several radiation health physicists that work under contract for me on various projects. I can ask one of them and I hope they don't charge me for it.

0 Replies
 
 

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