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Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

 
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 10:35 pm
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 10:55 pm
This one touches on how ID/Creationist leaders bilk the gullible public and feeds a sub-culture of denialism that is dangerous for society as a whole, as it fuels such things as faith healing, the anti-vaccine movement, climate change denialism, etc.

Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 11:42 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
This one touches on how ID/Creationist leaders bilk the gullible public and feeds a sub-culture of denialism that is dangerous for society as a whole, as it fuels such things as faith healing, the anti-vaccine movement, climate change denialism, etc.
     ... and how have you obtained that number that 95% of the scientists that are fond of the Big Bang 'theory' - is it 95% of the scientists-atheists; is it 95% of the scientists-theists; 95% of only cosmologists; 95% of all sciences related somehow to astrophysics & cosmology - or perhaps 95% of the personal friends with whom you share common interests & common beliefs and feel comfortable there; does that 95% of the target group believe that there might be something in the Big Bang theory, or considers it as a life-saving know-how for our existence and prosperity - and why at all anyone should tell whomever what he/she should believe in or not? Today you tell the theists to replace the God with the Big Bang 'theory' - tomorrow you may start telling the population what to think and how to think on the other issues as well. How did you come to know that your personal beliefs are verified and validated and have truth value of 95%, when you even don't know how to assign truth value to beliefs, how to make belief revision and how to clean up the beliefs from contradictions. Not to say that you don't even confess that the Big Bang is much more beliefs - hence religion- than science.
     The much fair approach would be (that I don't engage anybody with) - is to say openly the things as they actually are - we don't know whether the Universe has been created or has always existed, we don't know how has the Big Bang guessed to change the PNA of the cyanobacteria into DNA (with humans), in order to make us compatible for life & co-existence without any interference, and to preserve the bio-code of the cyanobacteria (just in case), when the fossil fuel emissions get out of control (as they already actually are); the hypothesis that another ILF (different from the Supreme Intelligence of the Universe/God) has made us should not be a priori excluded as well, let alone without any any justification at all; we don't know for sure what is the non-Euclidean solid geometry form of the Universe, and we don't even know whether we will ever be able to have the math apparatus of get knowing & testing that - and the only things that we can tell for now is that some fresh ideas are here needed.
     Do not bullshit for you too may be bullshitted.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 11:49 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
This one touches on how ID/Creationist leaders bilk the gullible public and feeds a sub-culture of denialism that is dangerous for society as a whole, as it fuels such things as faith healing, the anti-vaccine movement, climate change denialism, etc.
     ... and how have you obtained that number that 95% of the scientists that are fond of the Big Bang 'theory' - ...


It's called "math."

How did you arrive at 45% for your god hypothesis?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 11:53 pm
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 12:10 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
It's called "math."
     As you start becoming fond of math and statistics, why don't you make a feasibility study: ask the people around you (who have succeeded in one way or another in life): what they trust more - are they fond of the stochastics of the events just happening (& the Big Bang 'theory' with undefined math model, undefined variables, and not-needing any assumptions) OR their personal abilities to acquire & verify information, to assess the environment, to make decisions, to consider options & to participate actively in the events.
     Ask them whether the casino global economy, the stochastics of the Big Bang and the arbitrary pouring of various chemicals into the rivers are life-saving 'theories' to them or not? Ask them whether leaving the things on the arbitrariness of fate is an idea of first brightness? ... and what about you - what do you think on these issues?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 12:22 am
Quote:
10 January 2013, 6.16am AEDT
‘One funeral at a time’: Big Bang denial and the search for truth


AUTHOR

Michael J. I. Brown
ARC Future Fellow and Senior Lecturer at Monash University

We now know far more about the universe’s violent beginnings than we did in the 1940s. We are living in an era of science denial. An era when well-established facts are disputed, fake experts are interviewed by the media and blog posts trump science papers.

It’s an era of vaccine denial, evolution denial, and of course, climate change denial.

I’d also add Big Bang denial to that list.
Sure, it might be more esoteric than climate change denial, but it’s attracting increasing amounts of attention, thanks to the efforts of people such as US congressman Paul Broun, who declared late last year:

All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell.

In living memory, the most vocal opposition to the Big Bang has gone from the realms of legitimate scientific debate to that of science denial.

But how did this come to pass? What are the origins of Big Bang denial? And does it provides clues about the future of science denial generally?

Early debates

Today the Big Bang paradigm is supported by a plethora of observations:

the expansion of the universe measured with variable stars, supernovae and the distribution of galaxies

the faint microwave afterglow of the Big Bang fireball

the abundances of the light elements (such as hydrogen and helium), forged in the hot and dense furnace of the early universe

the young galaxies seen in the distant universe.

Even a tiny bit of the static seen on an analogue TV is from the afterglow of the Big Bang.


...
Breakthrough

In 1964 there was a Eureka moment. By accident, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered the microwave afterglow of the Big Bang. This afterglow simply hadn’t been predicted by other theories.

Edwin Hubble’s protege, Allan Sandage, improved measurements of the expanding universe, showing it was far older than Edwin Hubble supposed. And so the Big Bang theory was no longer conflicting with the age of the sun.

Most astronomers were increasingly convinced by the Big Bang theory, but a core of opposition remained.

...

Extraordinary claims about the supposed failings of the Big Bang theory weren’t being backed by extraordinary evidence.

Repetition

Today, there is a wealth of data that is explained with the Big Bang paradigm. Astronomers and physicists still propose many new theories (e.g. quintessence), but most include an expanding universe with a Big Bang at its beginning.

The original Big Bang opponents are dead or old, but some persevere. Unfortunately, they often just repeat flawed theories and analyses from earlier decades, often ignoring well-established facts and newer research.

...

The inability of many Big Bang opponents to update their analyses and let go of disproved ideas now serves as a cautionary tale to younger scientists.

The distribution of galaxies in observations and simulations is remarkably similar, despite what Big Bang opponents claim.

Denial

But now, a new generation of Big Bang opponents has risen. Often they have an amateur’s knowledge of astrophysics and strong ideological motivations, even if they have a background in science. They want the universe to conform with their preconceived ideas.

As a consequence, science denial can come from those at both extremes of the ideological spectrum. Young Earth creationists oppose the Big Bang because it makes the universe billions of years old. Even some atheists oppose the Big Bang because it has a creation event.

Big Bang opponents often ignore well-established evidence, and as a consequence they are publishing less and less in peer-reviewed science journals. Often the most vocal opposition to the Big Bang appears online in fringe journals and websites, where it can avoid astronomers' difficult facts and criticism. This is also true of those opposing anthropogenic climate change, who publish just a tiny fraction of all peer-reviewed papers on climate.

The amateur Big Bang opponents make amateur’s mistakes and straw-man arguments are common. There are claims, for instance, that the distribution of quasar and galaxy distances isn’t explained by the Big Bang paradigm.

However, Big Bang opponents have not compared observations with predictions from theory and simulations, so these claims are baseless. When astronomers compare observations with simulations, there is no discrepancy between the data and the Big Bang paradigm.

Astronomers point out these mistakes time and time again. However, many Big Bang opponents reframe the criticism as scientists defending orthodoxy, rather than acknowledging the errors made.

...

Australian physicist (and Big Bang opponent) John Hartnett has stated:

The standard model is assumed to be correct and when evidence questioning that conclusion is found … a special effort was immediately made to show how it could still be explained in the standard model.

“Special effort” is an unjustified and strange choice of phrase. What matters is the fact that observations and theory simply agree.

Perception

The public perception of the Big Bang debate has changed with its protagonists. When opposition to the Big Bang is discussed, it is framed in terms of ideology rather than scientific debate.

...

So what does the current state of Big Bang denial mean for the future? There are interesting parallels with the climate debate.

The tiny minority of climate scientists who are vocal critics of anthropogenic climate change are mostly over 50. Younger climate change deniers are often amateurs, bloggers and ideologues. The number of scientists questioning anthropogenic climate change is going to decrease in the coming decades.

Perhaps this is the good news about science denial. While science denial can influence public debates, this influence wanes without the backing of scientists. As elderly scientists fade from view and aren’t replaced by credible alternatives, the public debate will stop questioning the science.

To quote German Nobel Prize-winning physicist Max Planck:

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

Or, to paraphrase ever so slightly: “Science advances one funeral at a time.”


http://theconversation.com/one-funeral-at-a-time-big-bang-denial-and-the-search-for-truth-11127
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 12:24 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
It's called "math."
     As you start becoming fond of math and statistics, why don't you make a feasibility study...


English translation: http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/lalala.gif
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 12:25 am
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 12:42 am
@FBM,
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeassseee not again!!!!!!!!!

danger??????????? Whoaaaaaaaa


Stop puting those idiotic science videos on!!!!

THOSE PEOPLE ARE GATEKEEPERS! NOTHING MORE!!!

WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT???
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 12:49 am
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 01:30 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
The opportunities
     If you consider only the laptops & the iPads - maybe yes, there is some kind of a progress, which actually has many features of regress as well - like for example the i-phone chips that with every day and in any way are becoming thinner & thinner, from where the EM waves they are using as means of communication are becoming more & more dense ... and more & more dangerous to the brain, for example.
     Actually the whole that video is one-sided view of the things, for in it are presented and considered only the man-made achievements, without considering and even mentioning the damages and the loss to the environment (like for example the irreversible advent of the deserts - for further details see the climate crisis in Syria in the recent few years).
     If you cannot find economically feasible way to process back the CO2 at the rate it is emitted everywhere, which world is better off: the one with 250 ppm (1980s) or the one with 450 (2010s)? Which world is better off: clean rivers with healthy fish, or polluted to infinity rivers with fish mutations ... where one can hardly recognize the species of the fish? Which world is better off: world with good seasons or world with floods, in which you neither know in which climate zone you are at present, nor why? Which world is better off: ocean with acidity of pH 8.4 (actually good alkalescence) or one with pH 7.9, if the event horizon of sending the marine biosphere in the 'Dimension X' is pH 7.4, for example? Which world is better off: if you have 150 years to the game over or 100 years to the game over event horizon? Which world is better off: when you have clean potable water of 3.5% for population of 3.5 BN or less than 2.5% potable water with disputable quality to a population of 7.3 BN? What about the EM impact on the human health - which room is better off: one with a single optical cable, FTTx junctions & coax net, or one with at least 5 Wi-Fi networks, VDSL-2 copper at 1 GHz, and net protocols of any kind connecting the gas stove in the kitchen with the hub at the headquarters of some people with stochastic understanding of the world?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 02:49 am
@Herald,
How does any of this support your god claim?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 03:19 am
Quote:
Index to Creationist Claims,
edited by Mark Isaak, Copyright © 2008
Previous Claim: CB403 | List of Claims | Next Claim: CB420
Claim CB411:


Evolution cannot explain moral behavior, especially altruism. Evolutionary fitness is selfish; individuals win only by benefitting themselves and their offspring.

Source:

Dembski, William A., 2004. Reflections on human origins. http://www.designinference.com/documents/2004.06.Human_Origins.pdf
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. 1985. Life--How Did It Get Here? Brooklyn, NY, p. 177.

Response:

The claim ignores what happens when organisms live socially. In fact, much about morals can be explained by evolution. Since humans are social animals and they benefit from interactions with others, natural selection should favor behavior that allows us to better get along with others.

Fairness and cooperation have value for dealing with people repeatedly (Nowak et al. 2000). The emotions involved with such justice could have evolved when humans lived in small groups (Sigmund et al. 2002). Optional participation can foil even anonymous exploitation and make cooperation advantageous in large groups (Hauert et al. 2002).

Kin selection can explain some altruistic behavior toward close relatives; because they share many of the same genes, helping them benefits the giver's genes, too. In societies, altruism benefits the giver because when others see someone acting altruistically, they are more likely to give to that person (Wedekind and Milinski 2000). In the long term, the generous person benefits from an improved reputation (Wedekind and Braithwaite 2002). Altruistic punishment (punishing another even at cost to yourself) allows cooperation to flourish even in groups of unrelated strangers; the abstract of Fehr and Gächter (2002) is worth quoting in full:

Human cooperation is an evolutionary puzzle. Unlike other creatures, people frequently cooperate with genetically unrelated strangers, often in large groups, with people they will never meet again, and when reputation gains are small or absent. These patterns of cooperation cannot be explained by the nepotistic motives associated with the evolutionary theory of kin selection and the selfish motives associated with signalling theory or the theory of reciprocal altruism. Here we show experimentally that the altruistic punishment of defectors is a key motive for the explanation of cooperation. Altruistic punishment means that individuals punish, although the punishment is costly for them and yields no material gain. We show that cooperation flourishes if altruistic punishment is possible, and breaks down if it is ruled out. The evidence indicates that negative emotions towards defectors are the proximate mechanism behind altruistic punishment. These results suggest that future study of the evolution of human cooperation should include a strong focus on explaining altruistic punishment.

Finally, evolution does not require that all traits be adaptive 100 percent of the time. The altruism that benefits oneself most of the time may contribute to life-risking behavior in some infrequent circumstances.

This claim is an argument from incredulity. Not knowing an explanation does not mean no explanation exists. And as noted above, much of the explanation is known already.

References:


Fehr, Ernst and Simon Gächter, 2002. Altruistic punishment in humans. Nature 415: 137-140.
Hauert, C., S. De Monte, J. Hofbauer and K. Sigmund, 2002. Volunteering as Red Queen mechanism for cooperation in public goods games. Science 296: 1129-1132.
Nowak, M. A., K. M. Page and K. Sigmund, 2000. Fairness versus reason in the ultimatum game. Science 289: 1773-1775.
Sigmund, Karl, E. Fehr and M. A. Nowak, 2002. (see below)
Wedekind, C. and V. A. Braithwaite, 2002. The long-term benefits of human generosity in indirect reciprocity. Current Biology 12: 1012-1015.
Wedekind, C. and M. Milinski, 2000. Cooperation through image scoring in humans. Science 288: 850-852. See also Nowak, M. A. and K. Sigmund, 2000. Shrewd investments. Science 288: 819-820.
Wright, Robert, 1994.


http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB411.html
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 03:30 am
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/10801793_885341771485884_2265911925983936382_n.jpg
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 03:31 am
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/download-1.jpg
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 04:39 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
How does any of this support your god claim?
     You don't know what actually my claim is. It may be that you don't know the assumptions of the Big Bang 'theory'; that Cosmology is not Medical Science; and that if you want to become a great doctor perhaps you should start watching videos on the subject matter ... instead of dealing with popes and politicians - but this is just my opinion.
Herald
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 04:44 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
RE: the believers & beliefs
     What are you talking about beliefs so much - the Big Bang is not only & simply a common system of beliefs and nothing else, but it is outperforming some of the leading religions in the world. There is nothing from the real world in the Big Bang 'theory', except for the red-shift and the CMB (without any correlation whatsoever to any Big Bang ever happening, let alone expansion of the Universe that the Big Bang cannot even explain whether it has Euclidean solid geometry or not). When I create something I can always tell what its shape is (or is supposed to be) - how does it happen that all of a sudden the Big Bang cannot explain what the form of the Universe that it is personally creating all the time, actually is? If you don't know the form what exactly have you created? The Big Bang doesn't even have any assumptions, which is presented as its 'greatest advantage' (whatever that is supposed to mean).
     BTW denying the Big Bang (which is really a fake theory, and the only reason by which it is existing is to place the Science above Religion as social status ... and nothing else), and denying the Climate Change (the goal of which is to burn fossil fuels to infinity in order not miss any easy makering at the expense of the next generations) are very different things - the major question in any denialism (atheism included) is qui curae?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 04:48 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
How does any of this support your god claim?
     You don't know what actually my claim is...


Well, I've managed to squeeze a "personal 45% god" out of you, but beyond that, yes, you're definitely being intellectually dishonest by hiding your full hypothesis. Thanks for confessing to being intellectually dishonest. I wonder why that is? Ashamed? You realized deep down how ridiculous it is? Wink

Actually, I do know pretty well what your claim is. It goes something like, 'Science can't explain everything, therefore my god!' (God-of-the-gaps ad nauseum).
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2015 04:51 am
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

FBM wrote:
RE: the believers & beliefs
     What are you talking about beliefs so much ...


Why are you constantly asking for my personal assumptions about the BBT? I've already made it abundantly clear that neither my nor your personal beliefs have any significance with regards to the clearly stated scientific facts.

Your god hypothesis is a belief that is not supported by any data whatsoever. Scientific cosmology is overwhelmingly (not 100%) supported by an abundance of data. Why should anyone choose your flimsy 45% god-claim over that of the scientists?
0 Replies
 
 

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