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Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

 
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2014 11:26 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
Why don't you make a computer model of an existing god? :lol
     ... because it is irrelevant to the claims about God - the Theology does not claim that God is expanding 3D object without a stereometric center ... well, it may be claiming some other things, but they are irrelevant to the Big Bang 'theory'.
     Do you have the 3D model of your object - equal red shift in all directions; and no stereometric center?
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2014 11:34 pm
@InkRune,
InkRune wrote:
You're greatly constraining the Theory of the Big bang.
     BTW I am not constraining anything - it is the 'theory' of the Big Bang that has self-proclaimed itself to be explaining the physical world ... and hence complies with all the constraints of that world, incl. the laws of physics and math logic. This has nothing to do with me. The Big Bang has self-proclaimed to be universally valid, and hence implicitly complying with any of the constraints of the physical and metaphysical (as it seems) world.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2014 11:34 pm
@Herald,
It is relevant to request the same level of evidence for your god hypothesis that you are demanding of the scientific one. So far, you have produced zero, nada, except fallacious reasoning.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/67-circular-reasoning

When you've demonstrated that your god hypothesis is at least remotely as robust as the standard model, I will begin to take you seriously. Why should anyone take your god claim seriously?
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2014 11:39 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
It is relevant to request the same level of evidence for your god hypothesis that you are demanding of the scientific one.
     ... and how did you come to know that God (if exists) has directly created us, and there are no intermediate ILFs in-between? Why do you automatically accept that in case the Big Bang 'theory' is fake (as it actually is) there must be some God (as we know Him from the Bible) existing? ... and vice versa - if you succeed to prove that God does not exist (of which I doubt) the Big Bang 'theory' becomes automatically true and valid? Where do you know all that from?
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2014 11:42 pm
@Herald,
Rational tip of the day: Try not to shoot down your own hypothesis while defending it. (*whispers* Yours is the god hypothesis, not mine.)
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2014 11:48 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
*whispers* Yours is the god hypothesis, not mine.
     another whisper (from the Big Bang perhaps) ... you are expanding, you laptop is expanding, your room is expanding and you are personally expanding ... without any center of the brain ... some day you may become the ad of Michelin - who knows.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2014 11:56 pm
@Herald,
You're persisting in ignorance that I corrected days ago. Why should anyone believe in your god?
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 12:04 am
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/10424337_1010944018921049_6706655016753889399_n.jpg
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 12:32 am
@FBM,
ecactly!!!

Evolutionst connect points that aren't there! They have learned that by root indoctrination.

I don't know about creationists, I am none.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 03:46 am
@Quehoniaomath,
you only "buy into" Creationist style arguments.
If you quack like a duck and believe other duck stories,...
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 05:02 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
@Q: If you quack like a duck and believe other duck stories,...
     Ah, FM, nice to have you again. Have you connected the points of the data: equal red shift in all diections representing an object in the 3D space ... without any stereometrical center in any moment ... and expanding with acceleration? Can you provide any evidence avout your laptop and your cabinet/study expanding ... with acceleration?
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 05:08 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
RE: the Data
     Absolutely, it is exactly what the evolutionists are doing: they suggestologize the data to match a pre-constructed fake theory and then start matching the data against that theory and start explaining: did you see it, we told you that it is the evolution matching the data, and so it came out.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 05:24 pm
@Herald,
The red shift has been explained to you Herald and you just ignored it. If you want to wallow in your ignorance, I guess you are free to do so.

Let me make it simple for you again.

We have 3 objects near each other represented as follows:

A.B.C.......

All are accelerating at different speed so after a certain time they would be like this

..A...B....C

A, B, and C have no reference other than themselves.
A sees B and C moving away from A
B sees A and C moving away from B
C sees B and A moving away from C

Are you still wallowing in your ignorance Herald? A child should be able to understand the simplicity of this explanation.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 07:01 pm
@Herald,
Herald wrote:

Quote:
...they suggestologize the data to match a pre-constructed fake theory ...


Laughing Let me introduce you to the concept of a mirror. All you have to do is present something better than the current standard model and the world will open their ears to you. Still waiting. How about outlining your own hypothesis and the supporting evidence for it?
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 12:17 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
The red shift has been explained to you Herald and you just ignored it.
     When? If it remains for the atheists to explain the red shift - wow to us.
    The red shift is increased wavelength which is equivalent to lower frequency and lower photon energy and you personally have not explained anything.You don't even have an idea whether with the distance the photon does not lose energy and/or with the time the elementary particles are not shrinking (for the distances you are talking about are measuring light emitted 13.7 Bya). Why don't you pay attention that 13.7 By is a lot of time and everything might have happened with the matter and with the particles ... not only with the space.
     In order to claim that your study is expanding you have to exclude all the other possibilities - and you don't even know which are they.
parados wrote:
We have 3 objects near each other represented as follows:
A.B.C.......
All are accelerating at different speed so after a certain time they would be like this
..A...B....C
A, B, and C have no reference other than themselves.
     You are twisting the things by misrepresentation, which is typical for that theory. The model is not A.B.C but rather:
.......X.Y.Z.[H].A.B.C......., where [H] is the Hubble telescope (with the new Japanese correction lens), and the expansion that the theory claims is s.th. like that:
X....Y...Z..[H]..A...B....C (equal red shift in all directions from the reference point), which means that unless you explain why the position of the telescope is into the center of the Universe and into the center of expansion, nothing is expanding - neither your laptop, not even your study ... and the evidence is that the photon is losing energy by some reason unknown and not because of the expansion of your laptop.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:21 am
This is classical and comical. In spite of explaining the god-of-the-gaps fallacy that Herod can't overcome in the preceding paragraphs, the writer turns right around and commits it again! Laughing

Quote:
Question: "What is the God of the gaps argument?"

Answer: The “God-of-the-gaps” argument refers to a perception of the universe in which anything that currently can be explained by our knowledge of natural phenomena is considered outside the realm of divine interaction, and thus the concept of “God” is invoked to explain what science is, as yet, incapable of explaining. In other words, only the “gaps” in scientific knowledge are explained by the work of God, hence the name “God of the gaps.”

The idea is that as scientific research progresses, and an increasing number of phenomena are explained naturalistically, the role of God diminishes accordingly. The major criticism commonly states that invoking supernatural explanations should decrease in plausibility over time, as the domain of knowledge previously explained by God is decreasing.

However, with modern advances in science and technology, the tables have been literally turned. With the advent of electron scanning microscopes, we have been able to observe the intricate workings of the cell for the first time. What had originally and simplistically been thought to be nothing more than a “blob” of protoplasm is now seen to be far more complex and information-packed than had ever been conceived of previously.

Much of what had once been filed away as “solved” in the early twentieth century is now found to be inadequately explained by naturalism. Twenty-first century technology is increasingly revealing gaping holes in conventional evolutionary theory. The information-rich content of the “simple” has only recently been understood at any real level and found to be anything but simple. Information can now be understood to be inherently non-material. Therefore, materialistic processes cannot qualify as sources of information.

In reality, a belief in God can be derived by means of an objective assessment, rather than the subjective conjecture that may have been the case millennia ago. But many people simply deny what is obvious to them. The Bible addresses those very people: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:18-20). The God-of-the-gaps argument is an example of “suppressing the truth” because it relegates God to a “backup” explanation for those things which cannot yet be explained by natural phenomena. This leads some to the faulty conclusion that God is not the omnipotent, omnipresent, absolute Being of whom Scripture testifies.

There is much for which the natural sciences simply cannot provide an explanation, such as the origin of the time/space/matter continuum and the fine-tuning thereof; the origin and subsequent development of life itself; and the origin of the complex and specified information systems inherent in all living things, which cannot (nor ever will be) explained by natural means. Thus one cannot rationally divorce the supernatural from the observed universe, proving once again that “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).



Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-of-the-gaps.html#ixzz3L6UjnCK4
Herald
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:02 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
This is classical and comical.
     Which one exactly do you have in mind?
FBM wrote:
The “God-of-the-gaps” argument refers to a perception of the universe in which anything that currently can be explained by our knowledge of natural phenomena is considered outside the realm of divine interaction, and thus the concept of “God” is invoked to explain what science is, as yet, incapable of explaining.
     1. The 'God-of-the-gaps argument' is called agnosticism and it is a school of philosophy - it is not a religion ... and there is no God there.
     2. 'perception of the Universe' - why don't you explain what is your personal perception of the red shift, the dark matter and the dark energy? Do you know what is your greatest problem - that you cannot explain the dark matter and the dark energy with the fake assumptions of the Big Bang 'theory'. The very moment you succeed to twist the data and to construct some mind-blowing misinterpretations that will match the Big Bang 'theory', everything will become hunky dory.
     3.'that currently can be explained by our knowledge of natural phenomena' - which natural phonemena your author is talking about? The Big Bang is not a natural pheomenon, neither is the Evolution. The natural phenomenon is called 'energy loss in the photon' that may have nothing to do with any expansion of whatsoever ever happening. If you are curious to know the vacuum is not perfect and when the light travels through any medium (it doesn't matter whether it is air, fiber-glass or space vacuum) there is always some loss of energy - that is why the transceivers on the optical lines are placed for. The fact that some optical communication may have loss of 15 dB at some distance (100 m for example) does not mean at all that the fiber-optic cable is expanding ... not to speak about 'natural phenomenon' denied by some religion.
FBM wrote:
In other words, only the “gaps” in scientific knowledge are explained by the work of God, hence the name “God of the gaps.”
     In other words the possibilities for the misrepresentation of whatsoever are infinite.
     BTW why don't you start putting your own thoughts on paper (or sooner on the screen) instead of copy-pasting some presentations that are made in connection with God-knows-what occasions - like for example defending a Ph.D. thesis on some qrotesque theme 'The Fame & Glory of the Big Bang 'theory' and the collapse of the classical sciences'.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:12 am
@Herald,
Quote:
The 'God-of-the-gaps argument' is called agnosticism and it is a school of philosophy - it is not a religion ... and there is no God there.


Wtf. It's an argument used by theists to try to dishonestly wedge their favorite invisible friend into. "Science doesn't know everything, therefore god." You're denying your own favorite tactic. Laughing

I've brought plenty of evidence and necessary (not fallacious, as you have) inference. Quid pro quo. Your turn to bring some evidence and argument for your god that is approximately equivalent in strength to the naturalistic one. Gaps in science is not evidence for your god. You're just telling us what we already know. Tell us something about your god. Like, why anyone should believe in it.
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:21 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Wtf. It's an argument used by theists to try to dishonestly wedge their favorite invisible friend into. "Science doesn't know everything, therefore god." You're denying your own favorite tactic.

I've brought plenty of evidence and necessary (not fallacious, as you have) inference. Quid pro quo. Your turn to bring some evidence and argument for your god that is approximately equivalent in strength to the naturalistic one. Gaps in science is not evidence for your god. You're just telling us what we already know. Tell us something about your god. Like, why anyone should believe in i


wtf! evidence? evidence? show us, girly!!!!

0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:28 am
Quote:
The "god of the gaps" is a bit of theological reasoning which invokes divine intervention as a way to understand natural phenomena that science is presently unable to explain; since we don't know how x happens, it is assumed that Goddidit. Of course, scientists and most rationalists would argue that naturalistic explanations for still-mysterious phenomena are always possible.[1]

The god of the gaps is one way for intelligent and scientifically literate theists to deal with the cognitive dissonance of believing in a transcendent god.
...
Life and evolution

One of the more prominent examples of current "God of the Gaps" thinking is the Intelligent Design movement, which claims that some aspects of how life formed are impossible to explain — not only with today's scientific knowledge, but ever.

Another well-worn God-gap is that of abiogenesis. Again, as there is no generally accepted explanation for the appearance of life on the planet, the position that Goddidit is taken as default by creationists.

Philosophy

The God of the Gaps argument finds what is perhaps its most popular manifestation in ideas about first cause. Ultimately, some people will always believe that something cannot come from nothing, and that any scientifically explained manifestation/creation of our universe will require that something "caused" it to exist. (There is, of course, rarely if ever a serious question of what caused the causer.)

Amusingly, Gödel's incompleteness theorems prove that God will always have a little gap left to hide in, no matter how much humanity learns.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
 

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