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Intelligent Design vs. Casino Universe

Forums: Intelligent Design, Religion, Unintelligent Life Form, Wingnut Denialism 101, I L F
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FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 08:45 am
@Olivier5,
Huh. Oddly enough, I think I could live with that.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 08:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

Quote:
there are no gods in this world

As I said earlier: The assertion "there are no gods" cannot be anything more than a blind guess.

'In this world' is an important qualification.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 08:49 am
@FBM,
Just kidding. I'm too lazy for that. And in all modesty, i wish to think the content of my posts is what makes them unique, not the font i use. ;-)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 08:59 am
Most of the talk about "yelling" on the Internet reminds me of:

"Mommy, he's making faces at me."

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT91YEllPuV3vrivXx7pA5JE1DUAfdqBhKZwJyyA9VGpI7MDLvO

Only not quite as mature.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 09:02 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:

Quote:
there are no gods in this world

As I said earlier: The assertion "there are no gods" cannot be anything more than a blind guess.

'In this world' is an important qualification.


Oh, really. You mean in another world...there might be!

Do you agree with me that the assertion "There are no gods in this world"... ...cannot be anything but a guess!
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 09:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
I disagree with your latest formulation.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 09:12 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Just kidding. I'm too lazy for that. And in all modesty, i wish to think the content of my posts is what makes them unique, not the font i use. ;-)


Not to burst your uniqueness bubble or anything, but a thousand monkeys with keyboards would all most likely produce unique posts. I'd shoot for empirical and logical support/validity over uniqueness. But that's just me. Anyhoo, as long as you're not SHOUTING...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 09:15 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I disagree with your latest formulation.


Wanna tell me why...or is that one of the mysteries of life?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 10:06 am
@Frank Apisa,
I told you already: where are the gods? Show them to me, or show their work to me, and I'll take it from there. Hell, at the least you could say what they are supposed to look like. You don't even know what you are looking for.

If some guy said to you "there is a 'schmurph' " without even defining what a schmurph is, and then asked you to prove him wrong, of course you couldn't.

Therefore it is a blind guess to say that a schmurph does not exist in this world.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 10:13 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

I told you already: where are the gods? Show them to me, or show their work to me, and I'll take it from there.


Ahhh...I see. You think that unless I, Frank Apisa, can show you a thing, that means it does not exist.

Hummm. I knew you liked me, but I did not realize it reached that far.

Not much I can do about that...except to say that there are all sorts of things that exist...that I cannot show you...or show you their work...or explain what they/it looks like. I hope that doesn't put you out too much.

Any chance you want to work on this a bit more?



https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLyD0Jp-weRApxUOGyCyRWlM3tZE3mx9KrechzqHwBH3Hi5tzoWghBow
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 10:16 am
@Frank Apisa,
Like what does exist, positively certainly exist, which you can't 'show' me one way or another?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 10:47 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Like what does exist, positively certainly exist, which you can't 'show' me one way or another?


Like...we do not know...do we?

We'd have to guess, right? There may be MANY things that "positively certainly exist" which I cannot show you...or even contemplate being.

Tell me this...I cannot show you...nor describe...nor tell you anything about their being...

...but do we know for sure that there are no living creatures on any planet circling the nearest 15 stars to Sol?

All we could do is to guess one way or the other. Nothing wrong with guessing...but that is what it would be!

That entire line of thought of yours is from the bottom of whatever you are digging, Olivier.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 11:13 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
...but do we know for sure that there are no living creatures on any planet circling the nearest 15 stars to Sol?

You think there might be gods on these planets? Are gods some extra-terrestrial beings? Some believe so. I don't define gods this way.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 11:22 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
...but do we know for sure that there are no living creatures on any planet circling the nearest 15 stars to Sol?

You think there might be gods on these planets? Are gods some extra-terrestrial beings? Some believe so. I don't define gods this way.


I don't "define" gods at all.

But you are saying "There are no gods in this world"...so you must have some idea of what kind of gods you are talking about.

You almost said that you were talking about god that impact or effect this world...and said there were none of that kind.

I am saying THAT IS A GUESS.

Tell me why you do not think it to be a guess...and puleeze...none of that "because you cannot show me one" nonsense.

You're up.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKud1djAKzxLixL7VDwqUciW-79ysP1EnypMR0az15-B0oK254kA

Hey, by the way...I am cooking dinner for the entire crew here (in-laws and all), so I may be away from time to time. But I will be here!
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 11:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
'Show me one' is shorthand for: 'if gods are actively messing around our universe, doing stuff in it, their presence should be (at least in theory) discernible to us'.

You basically retorted that they could be elsewhere than on earth. Far far away. I contend that in my definition of gods, they are not local. They are universal. This of course is only my assumption, part of my definition of what a god is supposed to be like.

For the sake of the argument, let's assume that gods can be local (eg forbidden to act on earth since Galileo). Then there are at least two possible meanings to what you're saying:

1) given current scientific / astronomic knowledge, we don't know whether there are gods in this universe or not.

OR

2) science will never ever be able to tell for sure whether there are gods or not in this universe.

I believe 1) is kind of trueish because we don't know if some race of extra-terrestrial beings do not deserve the name of 'gods' by somebody's standards... (not mine) but 2) is going too far.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 11:52 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

'Show me one' is shorthand for: 'if gods are actively messing around our universe, doing stuff in it, their presence should be (at least in theory) discernible to us'.


Maybe they are, but we cannot "discern" it, Olivier. Open you mind. We humans may not be the beginning and end of all things.

Quote:
You basically retorted that they could be elsewhere than on earth.


I have never said that anywhere...nor have I intimated it...nor have I suggested it.

This is a pure strawman.


Quote:
Far far away. I contend that in my definition of gods, they are not local. They are universal. This of course is only my assumption, part of my definition of what a god is supposed to be like.

For the sake of the argument, let's assume that gods can be local (eg forbidden to act on earth since Galileo). Then there are at least two possible meanings to what you're saying:

1) given current scientific / astronomic knowledge, we don't know whether there are gods in this universe or not.

OR

2) science will never ever be able to tell for sure whether there are gods or not in this universe.

I believe 1) is kind of trueish because we don't know if some race of extra-terrestrial beings do not deserve the name of 'gods' by somebody's standards... (not mine) but 2) is going too far.


Olivier, stop with the filibuster. It is never going to work...not with me and not with almost anyone else on A2K. And stop with trying to characterize what I am saying, because "what I am saying" is very clear and coherent.

What I actually am saying (I figured by now you would know this) is:

An assertion that THERE ARE NO GODS (or as modified by you, "there are no gods in this world"...IS NOTHING BUT A GUESS.

I am asking if you agree.

And laughing my ass off at the fact that rather than do what an intelligent person like you should be doing (saying, "You are correct about that, Frank")...instead you are going through all these contortions.

It is hilarious.

Keep digging, Olivier. It is something you are exceptional at.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 12:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

Maybe they are, but we cannot "discern" it, Olivier. Open you mind. We humans may not be the beginning and end of all things.

If we can't discern the gods, they are irrelevant to us.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 12:58 pm
@Olivier5,
However, there are many people on this planet who do believe there is a god, and we cannot ignore that fact.

The fact that man has created so many different gods is also not irrelevant to the extent that people's belief in their god is empirically without question.

The atheists amongst us who claim there is no god is based on the logical theory that god cannot be proven objectively. If god created this universe, who created god?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 01:03 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:

Maybe they are, but we cannot "discern" it, Olivier. Open you mind. We humans may not be the beginning and end of all things.

If we can't discern the gods, they are irrelevant to us.


They may be irrelevant, Olivier.

But saying NO GODS EXIST...is still a guess.

You are really trying to dance around that...but it ain't gonna happen. Dancing and digging at the same time just doesn't work! Wink

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQORt5TRVuqV1lo62VFCr90AtpvgNM0Wfzdn4EuEidrfH20t9J8


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUOv6r4oeksgJXKzp2CN-U4xZJahMA0pXEUdCedwXaxxUMYWkJTobrhHo
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2014 01:16 pm
whoa! Children!!!!
0 Replies
 
 

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