morality, drugs, existence

@Frank Apisa,

ahh classy move sir, turn everything around on me, and use my own argument back against me. well lets jump right into this pathetic excuse for a post:

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Let’s see if I can show you why I feel that way...beginning by taking a look at your charges for me

those supposed 'charges' for you were nothing more than exaggerated examples of what your logic amounts to.

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the only thing I have claimed to know here in this thread is that “Whatever actually IS…IS.”

firstly, no, you have claimed to know many more things by disputing many of my previous arguments. you especially love to claim your proficiency at english and prove your superiority. it is sad.
secondly, ok, i dispute this new claim also. it is uncertain whether anything IS. so unless 'whatever actually is' includes the possibility of 'nothing', then i dispute your claim.

'whatever actually is' is not necessarily 'what appears to be right now.' nor is it necessarily ANYTHING.

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It is a tautology, CM. The REALITY is that WHATEVER IS…IS.

this is your opinion. mine differs. accept it.

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You on the other hand claim that nothing can be known…yet you list all sorts of things as truths. Here is a list of some truths that you know…just from this single posting:

i don't list anything 'as truth', it is all my opinion, which i have conceded is involuntarily coming from my intellect, i have no control, i don't believe in a truth to be able to say things 'as truth'.

all the examples you posted were my personal opinions, which i accept could be totally false. and if you want to logically prove to me why they are false, i will gladly keep arguing. but instead, you just say 'omg, you are CLAIMING THIS STUFF AS TRUTH.. do you see how absurd this is?? are you new here???' blah blah. hahahaha.

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You've got things backwards, CM…you are the one who thinks you know the truths

have never said i know any truths. have only maintained there is no truth.

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and I am the person acknowledging that I do not know.

ahhh yes! the first time i remember you actually saying that, but i like it! a touch of this 'reality' that you love so much!

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By the way, have you ever wondered how you know for certain that your primary assertion (that nothing can be known with certainty) is certain???

i do not know or have any primary assertion. my personal opinion that nothing can be known with certainty is the 'most' certain opinion i have, although as clearly defined in the statement, i don't know anything with certainty, nor do i think it is possible for absolute certainty to exist.

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I doubt it, because you apparently are not able to see just how illogical your “logic” actually is.

logic is another concept. if you want to believe i am illogical, then go ahead. i think everything i have said has been perfectly logical.

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You seem to me to be delusional...with a grandiose opinion of yourself. You apparently think you have broken though some great intellectual or spiritual barrier….and are now preparing to “share it" with the lesser beings in of this world.”

the idea of being 'delusional' presumes some base level of sanity which doesn't exist. i have told you numerous times that my opinion of myself is a nobody, a nothingness. if this is your definition of grandiose, then good luck in your psychological studies.

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Many people go through that stage. Don’t worry…most grow out of it as they become adults. More than likely you will also.

exactly my point. if you remember, i was the one telling you about 'that stage', until you turned it back around on me as a defence mechanism. this is why i am worried about you, most people grow out of it by adulthood and especially by your age.

okkkk. that was one long mess of a post to deal with, but fun to easily pick apart and reveal as the bunch of nonsense it was.

1 Reply

@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

ahh classy move sir, turn everything around on me, and use my own argument back against me. well lets jump right into this pathetic excuse for a post:

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Let’s see if I can show you why I feel that way...beginning by taking a look at your charges for me

those supposed 'charges' for you were nothing more than exaggerated examples of what your logic amounts to.

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the only thing I have claimed to know here in this thread is that “Whatever actually IS…IS.”

firstly, no, you have claimed to know many more things by disputing many of my previous arguments. you especially love to claim your proficiency at english and prove your superiority. it is sad.
secondly, ok, i dispute this new claim also. it is uncertain whether anything IS. so unless 'whatever actually is' includes the possibility of 'nothing', then i dispute your claim.

'whatever actually is' is not necessarily 'what appears to be right now.' nor is it necessarily ANYTHING.

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It is a tautology, CM. The REALITY is that WHATEVER IS…IS.

this is your opinion. mine differs. accept it.

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You on the other hand claim that nothing can be known…yet you list all sorts of things as truths. Here is a list of some truths that you know…just from this single posting:

i don't list anything 'as truth', it is all my opinion, which i have conceded is involuntarily coming from my intellect, i have no control, i don't believe in a truth to be able to say things 'as truth'.

all the examples you posted were my personal opinions, which i accept could be totally false. and if you want to logically prove to me why they are false, i will gladly keep arguing. but instead, you just say 'omg, you are CLAIMING THIS STUFF AS TRUTH.. do you see how absurd this is?? are you new here???' blah blah. hahahaha.

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You've got things backwards, CM…you are the one who thinks you know the truths

have never said i know any truths. have only maintained there is no truth.

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and I am the person acknowledging that I do not know.

ahhh yes! the first time i remember you actually saying that, but i like it! a touch of this 'reality' that you love so much!

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By the way, have you ever wondered how you know for certain that your primary assertion (that nothing can be known with certainty) is certain???

i do not know or have any primary assertion. my personal opinion that nothing can be known with certainty is the 'most' certain opinion i have, although as clearly defined in the statement, i don't know anything with certainty, nor do i think it is possible for absolute certainty to exist.

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I doubt it, because you apparently are not able to see just how illogical your “logic” actually is.

logic is another concept. if you want to believe i am illogical, then go ahead. i think everything i have said has been perfectly logical.

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You seem to me to be delusional...with a grandiose opinion of yourself. You apparently think you have broken though some great intellectual or spiritual barrier….and are now preparing to “share it" with the lesser beings in of this world.”

the idea of being 'delusional' presumes some base level of sanity which doesn't exist. i have told you numerous times that my opinion of myself is a nobody, a nothingness. if this is your definition of grandiose, then good luck in your psychological studies.

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Many people go through that stage. Don’t worry…most grow out of it as they become adults. More than likely you will also.

exactly my point. if you remember, i was the one telling you about 'that stage', until you turned it back around on me as a defence mechanism. this is why i am worried about you, most people grow out of it by adulthood and especially by your age.

okkkk. that was one long mess of a post to deal with, but fun to easily pick apart and reveal as the bunch of nonsense it was.

Nice try...but no cigar, CM. But I reiterate: You really are fun. I hope you stick around for a long time.

Let me take just one comment and show it to be nonsense…and after you acknowledge that it is nonsense, we can go back to any others you actually think make any sense.

You wrote:

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By the way, have you ever wondered how you know for certain that your primary assertion (that nothing can be known with certainty) is certain???

i do not know or have any primary assertion. my personal opinion that nothing can be known with certainty is the 'most' certain opinion i have, although as clearly defined in the statement, i don't know anything with certainty, nor do i think it is possible for absolute certainty to exist.

But earlier you wrote:

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i am saying there is no true statements, there is no truth, there is no reality,

http://able2know.org/topic/225324-5#post-5495093

After a long discussion about what “assert” means..you continued to declare that “there is no truth.”

That IS an assertion…and it seems to be primary because you are defending it despite the fact that it is an absurdity.

If you are in fact saying, “There MAY be no truth other than the truth that there MAY be no truth”…why not just say that? Why pretend that you know…or can logically deduce…that there is no truth…WHICH CANNOT BE, because if you logically deduce that there is no truth, there is a truth?

C’mon. Show you have some spine and acknowledge the error in your “logic” that I am highlighting…and do it without trying to pretend it is the result of language difficulties. Make no excuses…simply retract the statement…or alter it in some form of the wording I suggested.

Then pick out the next most important individual argument you have with me…and we can get on with the delightful and delighting conversation. (I’m doing items on Nancy’s Honey Do List, but I will be checking in every half hour or less.)

Hey...by the way...if "what IS...IS" is not a tautology in your universe, perhaps you could move back into this one (illusion or not) for the rest of our conversation! Wink

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

rofl. why do you bother quoting my whole post, if your only response is 'nice try, no cigar', a completely meaningless argument.

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Let me take just one comment and show it to be nonsense…and after you acknowledge that it is nonsense, we can go back to any others you actually think make any sense.

this is the difference between us. my responses to you systematically destroy every single line you have said. you pick on single, tiny, made up errors from my long posts, as a way to stay alive in the argument.

next you quote two things i say, as if they contradict each other. but they don't. learn to understand english better.

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After a long discussion about what “assert” means..you continued to declare that “there is no truth.”

That IS an assertion…and it seems to be primary because you are defending it despite the fact that it is an absurdity.

i know what assert means. i have repeated numerous times that i never assert anything, because assert implies confidence/certainty which i don't have. you interpreting those things in my words is your own problem, therefore you define it as an assertion.
i don't particularly care, if you love the word assertion so much, then ok, i am asserting everything. so what? it doesn't contradict my argument. an assertion can be wrong. there is no absolute truth or falsehood.

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If you are in fact saying, “There MAY be no truth other than the truth that there MAY be no truth”…why not just say that?

this is why i say, i keep going when i can see a tiny percentage of what i mean is being understood. this part shows me that yes, perhaps, you are slowly getting what i am saying. very slowly. let us look at your statement:
"there may be no truth other than the truth that there may be no truth." that, essentially, is my argument, but there is no need for so many words. if you use the same logic that got you to that point, and take it further, it will result in "there is no truth", being the paradoxical 'certainty' which proves the impossibility of any certainty.

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Why pretend that you know…or can logically deduce…that there is no truth…WHICH CANNOT BE, because if you logically deduce that there is no truth, there is a truth?

i do not pretend to, or actually, know anything. i do personally opine that i am logically deducing that there is no truth, while understanding the verbal paradox in the statement, and still maintaining the statement has validity.

logically deducing that 'there is no truth' has nothing to do with the actual possibility of 'no truth' or 'nothingness'. the logical deduction is part of the illusory 'existence'. logic is the only way to communicate within this illusory existence, therefore i use it.

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C’mon. Show you have some spine and acknowledge the error in your “logic” that I am highlighting…and do it without trying to pretend it is the result of language difficulties. Make no excuses…simply retract the statement…or alter it in some form of the wording I suggested.

again, begging me to acknowledge some error. i have done so COUNTLESS times. seriously, what do you want from me? a signed confession that in all cases, no matter what, i am wrong and frank is right? ok done. its yours.

now back to reality. the problem is not language difficulty. it is simply your refusal to allow the logic of what i am saying sink in. therefore you pick on my language, and create language difficulty to illustrate your superiority over the english language, which is clearly an irrelevant issue to this topic.

i make no excuses. i will never retract or alter any of my statements, all are absolutely as i intended them to be. i will, however, add to any of my statements to fit your needy definitions, to pacify your egotistical need to be correct in some way in this argument.

so yes. there may be no truth. and actually accepting that possibility leads to the paradoxical certainty that there is no truth.

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Then pick out the next most important individual argument you have with me…and we can get on with the delightful and delighting conversation. (I’m doing items on Nancy’s Honey Do List, but I will be checking in every half hour or less.)

i have zero individual argument with you. as said earlier, this is my thread, about my thoughts on reality vs nothingness. anyone who argues against my position will receive continual responses, if i deem the argument worthy.

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Hey...by the way...if "what IS...IS" is not a tautology in your universe, perhaps you could move back into this one (illusion or not) for the rest of our conversation!

i am not arguing if it's a tautology or not, nor do i care. hahaha, again, picking on irrelevant points to prove language superiority. but zero relevance to the argument.
'what is...is' is a meaningless, irrelevant statement to the question of nothingness. i am questioning the idea of 'is' vs 'is not', and concluding that both are 'illusory' or not absolutely real states.

now to predict your next response. 'omg, but you are asserting all of that!! its all the 'truth' to you. omg omg you contradicted yourself, you lose!'

to which i can only continually repeat that no, i am not asserting any of this as truth. there is no truth.

1 Reply

@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

rofl. why do you bother quoting my whole post, if your only response is 'nice try, no cigar', a completely meaningless argument.

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Let me take just one comment and show it to be nonsense…and after you acknowledge that it is nonsense, we can go back to any others you actually think make any sense.

this is the difference between us. my responses to you systematically destroy every single line you have said. you pick on single, tiny, made up errors from my long posts, as a way to stay alive in the argument.

next you quote two things i say, as if they contradict each other. but they don't. learn to understand english better.

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After a long discussion about what “assert” means..you continued to declare that “there is no truth.”

That IS an assertion…and it seems to be primary because you are defending it despite the fact that it is an absurdity.

i know what assert means. i have repeated numerous times that i never assert anything, because assert implies confidence/certainty which i don't have. you interpreting those things in my words is your own problem, therefore you define it as an assertion.
i don't particularly care, if you love the word assertion so much, then ok, i am asserting everything. so what? it doesn't contradict my argument. an assertion can be wrong. there is no absolute truth or falsehood.

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If you are in fact saying, “There MAY be no truth other than the truth that there MAY be no truth”…why not just say that?

this is why i say, i keep going when i can see a tiny percentage of what i mean is being understood. this part shows me that yes, perhaps, you are slowly getting what i am saying. very slowly. let us look at your statement:
"there may be no truth other than the truth that there may be no truth." that, essentially, is my argument, but there is no need for so many words. if you use the same logic that got you to that point, and take it further, it will result in "there is no truth", being the paradoxical 'certainty' which proves the impossibility of any certainty.

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Why pretend that you know…or can logically deduce…that there is no truth…WHICH CANNOT BE, because if you logically deduce that there is no truth, there is a truth?

i do not pretend to, or actually, know anything. i do personally opine that i am logically deducing that there is no truth, while understanding the verbal paradox in the statement, and still maintaining the statement has validity.

logically deducing that 'there is no truth' has nothing to do with the actual possibility of 'no truth' or 'nothingness'. the logical deduction is part of the illusory 'existence'. logic is the only way to communicate within this illusory existence, therefore i use it.

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C’mon. Show you have some spine and acknowledge the error in your “logic” that I am highlighting…and do it without trying to pretend it is the result of language difficulties. Make no excuses…simply retract the statement…or alter it in some form of the wording I suggested.

again, begging me to acknowledge some error. i have done so COUNTLESS times. seriously, what do you want from me? a signed confession that in all cases, no matter what, i am wrong and frank is right? ok done. its yours.

now back to reality. the problem is not language difficulty. it is simply your refusal to allow the logic of what i am saying sink in. therefore you pick on my language, and create language difficulty to illustrate your superiority over the english language, which is clearly an irrelevant issue to this topic.

i make no excuses. i will never retract or alter any of my statements, all are absolutely as i intended them to be. i will, however, add to any of my statements to fit your needy definitions, to pacify your egotistical need to be correct in some way in this argument.

so yes. there may be no truth. and actually accepting that possibility leads to the paradoxical certainty that there is no truth.

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Then pick out the next most important individual argument you have with me…and we can get on with the delightful and delighting conversation. (I’m doing items on Nancy’s Honey Do List, but I will be checking in every half hour or less.)

i have zero individual argument with you. as said earlier, this is my thread, about my thoughts on reality vs nothingness. anyone who argues against my position will receive continual responses, if i deem the argument worthy.

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Hey...by the way...if "what IS...IS" is not a tautology in your universe, perhaps you could move back into this one (illusion or not) for the rest of our conversation!

i am not arguing if it's a tautology or not, nor do i care. hahaha, again, picking on irrelevant points to prove language superiority. but zero relevance to the argument.
'what is...is' is a meaningless, irrelevant statement to the question of nothingness. i am questioning the idea of 'is' vs 'is not', and concluding that both are 'illusory' or not absolutely real states.

now to predict your next response. 'omg, but you are asserting all of that!! its all the 'truth' to you. omg omg you contradicted yourself, you lose!'

to which i can only continually repeat that no, i am not asserting any of this as truth. there is no truth.

1: Can I sum all this nonsense up to: Yes, I was wrong to assert that there is no truth, because it is an absurd thing to assert...and I would like to revise what I wrote about truth to reflect what you wrote, Frank?

2: Earlier you quoted me saying: “It is a tautology, CM. The REALITY is that WHATEVER IS…IS.

You responded, “This is your opinion.mine differs.accept it.

I responded to that with, “…if "what IS...IS" is not a tautology in your universe, perhaps you could move back into this one (illusion or not) for the rest of our conversation!”

Now you are countering with, “i am not arguing if it's a tautology or not”

Certainly sounds as though you were, CM…but your poor use of the language does make it ambiguous. So if you actually meant that you do not agree with “WHATEVER IS…IS” and just were not bright enough to word it understandably, allow me to say that if “whatever IS…ISN’T” in your universe, perhaps you could move back into this one (illusion or not) for the rest of our conversation!”

Jeez…I thought you would be a better adversary than this, CM. I’m starting to be disappointed. Now don’t get me wrong…I am still enjoying this more than you can imagine, but I was hoping for more quality from you. Can you pick it up a bit?

BY THE WAY...you ended this last post with that absurd assertion again, "there is no truth."

You gotta get over that!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

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Can I sum all this nonsense up to: Yes, I was wrong to assert that there is no truth, because it is an absurd thing to assert...and I would like to revise what I wrote about truth to reflect what you wrote, Frank?

if you want to incorrectly sum it up as such, then go ahead. otherwise, i can repeat my explanation a million times as to how there is no truth, in the absolute sense.

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Now you are countering with, “i am not arguing if it's a tautology or not”

Certainly sounds as though you were, CM…but your poor use of the language does make it ambiguous.

if you want me to argue that its not a tautology, i can. tautology is an ambiguous word with plenty of meanings, as is your beloved statement 'what is is'.

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So if you actually meant that you do not agree with “WHATEVER IS…IS” and just were not bright enough to word it understandably, allow me to say that if “whatever IS…ISN’T” in your universe, perhaps you could move back into this one (illusion or not) for the rest of our conversation!”

yes, it takes you a while, but you get there. that is what i meant. and i do not need to move back into any universe, because there is no universe. and yes, i would argue very, very strongly that 'whatever is isn't' is actually a much better statement, and more clearly illustrates the paradoxical truth i am talking about. so yes, thank you for giving me my new catch phrase, 'whatever is...isn't.'

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Jeez…I thought you would be a better adversary than this, CM. I’m starting to be disappointed. Now don’t get me wrong…I am still enjoying this more than you can imagine, but I was hoping for more quality from you. Can you pick it up a bit?

thanks for the complimentary feelings you have about me, but sorry to disappoint you. i would be happy to pick it up a lot further and delve deeper into the fascinating topic of non-existence. but in order for that to happen, you have to get past the barrier of 'there is no truth'. once you get past the paradox, we can talk further and i can 'pick it up' for you.

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BY THE WAY...you ended this last post with that absurd assertion again, "there is no truth."

You gotta get over that!

ok advice considered. and rejected. i will stick to 'there is no truth'.
i am not speaking of verbal truth, but absolute truth. there is no absolute reality by which to gauge truth vs falsehood. any truth is a limited verbal truth applying to mind-made concepts. therefore, in an absolute sense, it is not necessarily 'true'.

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@carnaticmystery,

Let me try to take this in small pieces for you, CM.

You wrote:

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ok advice considered. and rejected. i will stick to 'there is no truth'.
i am not speaking of verbal truth, but absolute truth. there is no absolute reality by which to gauge truth vs falsehood. any truth is a limited verbal truth applying to mind-made concepts. therefore, in an absolute sense, it is not necessarily 'true'.

Actually…if there were no absolute reality…that would be the absolute REALITY.

You really have a thing for these absurd, unsubstantiated, self-contradictory assertions!

Be that as it may…provide us with the evidence you have that there is “no absolute reality”…and that “there is no truth.”

Stop trying to make an argument from logic on this…and actually provide the evidence upon which you are basing these absurd, unsubstantiated; self-contradictory assertions—and make no mistake, CM, they are assertions; they are unsubstantiated; they are self-contradictory; and they are absurd.

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@Frank Apisa,

it doesn't matter if you repeat your argument a million times, it won't change mine.

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Actually…if there were no absolute reality…that would be the absolute REALITY.

not at all. this is the same trap your buddy fil was falling into. the presumption that there is an absolute reality before the questioning. therefore, as soon as you question reality, you conclude that even if there is no reality, that is the reality. a simple error born from presumption.

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Be that as it may…provide us with the evidence you have that there is “no absolute reality”…and that “there is no truth.”

i have already provided sufficient evidence. go back and read all my posts to understand further.
the evidence is simple. the only 'evidence' that exists points directly to the idea that 'there is no truth'. the only evidence apparently existing is our own experience. in this experience, it is SELF-EVIDENT that nothingness is primary, because nothingness reveals itself periodically (deep sleep), without any power to stop or alter it. if you attempt to prevent deep sleep for too long, you will die, which is just another form of nothingness in relation to consciousness.

so consciousness, the premise that we base reality on, is an unstable phenomenon which loses its own reality periodically. consciousness itself is nothingness with somethingness appearing in it. an appearance is never as real as the medium in which it appears. therefore, nothingness is primary, somethingness is secondary.

none of the above are assertions. they are all personal opinions, subject to being totally false. but i don't think they are. i think they are true, in the limited sense that the word applies.

in an absolute sense, i stand by my statement: there is no truth.

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Stop trying to make an argument from logic on this…and actually provide the evidence upon which you are basing these absurd, unsubstantiated; self-contradictory assertions—and make no mistake, CM, they are assertions; they are unsubstantiated; they are self-contradictory; and they are absurd.

haha why shouldn't i? do you claim logic as your own device? i have already explained to you, logic is a concept which works very well for communication, why would i not use it? i am providing the evidence, evidence can only be logic. the concept of evidence is part of the concept of logic.

i repeat that none of what i say is an assertion, other than due to your complimentary interpretation of my words as confident and forceful.

nothing i have said is unsubstantiated, there are plenty of world recognised non duality teachers who say the exact same thing as me:
Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharishi, Jaggi Vasudev, UG Krishnamurti and countless others.

nothing i have said is self-contradictory, unless you take the self to be the words themselves. i have already admitted the verbal paradoxes and explained them to you.

absurdity is again a concept like delusion, only meaningful when compared to your fictitious idea of normality.

1 Reply

@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

it doesn't matter if you repeat your argument a million times, it won't change mine.

I would almost bet on that, CM. Your mind is closed around this messianic fantasy you have built for yourself that you are going to reveal some divine truth for the world to use to understand itself better.

We get guys like you here from time to time...and most of the regulars just let them do their thing and finally move on to another forum in search of disciples.

I get a kick out of people like you...and I am here to banter with you (just about the only one!)

I can see that you realize that the foundation of your Revelation is built on mud and sand...so you try the gambit of "I really don't know but I think it is so"...but the truth (!) of the matter, CM, is that you are devoted to the belief system built around "there is no reality...and there is no truth."

If you truly questioned any of those tenets in any meaningful way...you would not write the stuff you write the way you do...the constant assertions and illogical "justifications" (rationalizations, actually) of them.

But a larger problem presents itself.

Nobody here (or anywhere else) should show significant respect for your ravings, CM, because you don't show much respect for them yourself. You write jumbled, illogical commentary filled with speculation presented as if it were revelation from on high. Your thesis is poorly conceived; poorly presented; and apparently you do not have enough respect for what you are trying to sell to edit your exposition to any decent, comprehensible structure.

Anyway...you have presented NOTHING to back up your assertions that there is no reality...and that there is no truth. You've simply stated those two pillars of this thing of yours as truths (strange as that is)...and then further asserted that it all is either "self-evident" (which it decidedly is not) or that "the only 'evidence' that exists points directly to the idea that 'there is no truth'" (which also is fantasy on your part.)

C'mon, you gotta do much better than this.

If there is no reality...that would be the REALITY. The comment "there is no reality" is an absurdity. The comment "there MAY BE no reality" is equally absurd, but at least it has the flavor of someone with an open mind on the subject, rather than someone devoted to this facet of a belief system.

"There is no truth"...is an absurdity. It is logically inconsistent...it contradicts itself.

Interesting nonsense, CM...and you should work on actually understanding it and develop better skills at handling disinclination toward it. Then work on your presentation. Posting these garbage posts is no way to sell something as unsaleable as this.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

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"There is no truth"...is an absurdity. It is logically inconsistent...it contradicts itself.

Don't be daft Frank, that statement has exactly the same logical status as your own

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If there were no absolute reality, that would be the absolute reality

You can't have it both ways !

The function of logical paradoxes (like Buddhist Koans) is to point to "the ineffable." There are levels of understanding and experience which cannot be expressed in normal language. For some, that realization affects their subsequent mode of living, and for others they remain intellectual and emotional curiosities.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

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"There is no truth"...is an absurdity. It is logically inconsistent...it contradicts itself.

Don't be daft Frank, that statement has exactly the same logical status as your own

The statement is an absurdity, Fresco...whether your belief system allows you to see it as absurd or not.

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If there were no absolute reality, that would be the absolute reality

You can't have it both ways !

I quite agree, Fresco...you CANNOT have it both ways. That is why I say that "there is no absolute REALITY" is an absurdity.

Glad we finally agree on something.

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The function of logical paradoxes (like Buddhist Koans) is to point to "the ineffable." There are levels of understanding and experience which cannot be expressed in normal language. For some, that realization affects their subsequent mode of living, and for others they remain intellectual and emotional curiosities.

Well...I am sure there are many other possible consequences of the various levels of "realization" on this issue...but I understand you wanting to present a dichotomy that serves as an insult to my perspective.

I find it amusing.

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@Frank Apisa,

Stick to golf Frank, metalogic is clearly out of your range.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Stick to golf Frank, metalogic is clearly out of your range.

That's the other thing with you guys who have belief systems that are beyond religious.

When people don't buy...it is because they are stupid.

No problem.

Smarter people than you have considered me stupid.

In fact, dumber people than you have.

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@Frank Apisa,

Stupidity (your word) is about assuming that the meaning of words like "truth" or "reality" is set in stone. Note that my 9 year old relation thought that "the earth's resources are becoming exhausted" meant that they were tired.
It is that very point, about contextual significance which eludes you every time. And it is that very point which esotericists seek to transcend by reference to the "ineffable".

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Stupidity (your word) is about assuming that the meaning of words like "truth" or "reality" is set in stone. Note that my 9 year old relation thought that "the earth's resources are becoming exhausted" meant that they were tired.
It is that very point, about contextual significance which eludes you every time. And it is that very point which esotericists seek to transcend by reference to the "ineffable".

That's more like it, Fresco...dazzle 'em with yer footwork.

Quick story you might tell your 9 year old relation:

Noah Webster's wife catches the noted lexicographer with his hands all over the upstairs maid.

"I am surprised," she exclaims.

"No, my dear," Noah replies, "you are astonished. It is I who am surprised."

Words convey thoughts. The thought behind the words, "There is no truth" is an absurdity. The thought behind the words, "There is no reality" are just as absurd.

The thoughts are tangled and contradictory...and the fact that words can sometimes be a problem...is not the problem here.

You gotta finally get that, Fresco!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Words convey thoughts. The thought behind the words, "There is no truth" is an absurdity. The thought behind the words, "There is no reality" are just as absurd.

Whose thoughts ????.....Not yours !
As I understand it CM is conveying his thoughts which I suggest can be paraphrased: "There is no ultimate meaning of truth" or "truth is a word used in contextual transactions but is meaningless as a holistic abstract concept".

But I am wasting my time aren't I Frank. ? I'll simply leave you with a reminder of Paul Cohen's award of the Fields Medal in mathematics for logically proving both that there "is" and "is not" an infinity which lies between the two different infinities identified by Georg Cantor.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
Words convey thoughts. The thought behind the words, "There is no truth" is an absurdity. The thought behind the words, "There is no reality" are just as absurd.

Whose thoughts ????.....Not yours !
As I understand it CM is conveying his thoughts which I suggest can be paraphrased: "There is no ultimate meaning of truth" or "truth is a word used in contextual transactions but is meaningless as a holistic abstract concept".

But I am wasting my time aren't I Frank. ? I'll simply leave you with a reminder of Paul Cohen's award of the Fields Medal in mathematics for logically proving both that there "is" and "is not" an infinity which lies between the two different infinities identified by Georg Cantor.

Ahhh...once again you have inferred stupidity...and will, if you deign to reply, suggest that "stupid" is my word and not yours even though a form of stupidity is absolutely inferred by the thought you conveyed using words.

If there both "is" and "is not" an infinity which lies between the two different infinities identified by Georg Cantor, which of course won Paul Cohen the Fields Medal in mathematics, then that IS...what IS.

But I doubt you will be able to get out from behind that belief system you have built to acknowledge anything I might propose...and considering what appears to be your opinion that I am unable to grasp complex concepts...why would you even bother doing so.

By the way, Fresco...take another look at what CM has written about "truth"...and you will see he is not talking about the word "truth" at all...but about the concept of truth. He means what he says: He "believes" "there is no truth"...and because this guess is so important to him, he will stick with it no matter what.

I have no idea of what the REALITY is...so I cannot discount it. I am merely pointing out that it is NOT NECESSARILY so...and cannot be asserted that way.

And if CM truly feels that way also (which is what he is pretending he does)...he could just as easily not bring it up at all...or to bring it up in a more circumspect rendering.

But I am sure he appreciates your help in trying to get him out from this hole he is digging.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If there both "is" and "is not" an infinity which lies between the two different infinities identified by Georg Cantor, which of course won Paul Cohen the Fields Medal in mathematics, then that IS...what IS.

no it is not. it is only your presumption that something is, which tells you that.

if there both "is" and "is not", this paradox points to what i am saying that there is no truth. ie. anything that "is" can also be seen to be "not" existing from a different perspective, therefore nothing "is" absolutely, everything both "is" and "is not" simultaenously.

Quote:

take another look at what CM has written about "truth"...and you will see he is not talking about the word "truth" at all...but about the concept of truth. He means what he says: He "believes" "there is no truth"...and because this guess is so important to him, he will stick with it no matter what.

you take another look, why should fresco, who already understands me perfectly? i don't believe anything. if you stopped believing anything, you would see the 'truth' that there is no truth. but you believe the 'reality' that you experience. you believe that some reality definitely exists, and all your logical enquiries come from this basic assumption. you think it is so definite that to question it is 'absurd'. this is the only basic difference between us. i am happy to accept it and move on, you are getting boring now.

Quote:

I have no idea of what the REALITY is...so I cannot discount it. I am merely pointing out that it is NOT NECESSARILY so...and cannot be asserted that way.

nobody has any idea, nobody can discount any 'possibility'. nothing is 'necessarily so'. nothing can be asserted.

all those 'assertions' as you will define them are simple logical responses to your comments, and they are substantiated by everything i have written in this thread. they are only 'true' in the limited sense of the word, within the context of assuming some 'reality' in this argument. and they are only 'true' from my point of view, from yours, they are false (probably).

get it? therefore there is no absolute truth.

Quote:

And if CM truly feels that way also (which is what he is pretending he does)...he could just as easily not bring it up at all...or to bring it up in a more circumspect rendering.

not pretending anything. why would i not bring it up? i felt like talking about non-existence, so i did. why should i be more circumspect, i am ready to answer and have answered all responses. if this is too deep for you, find another thread.

Quote:

But I am sure he appreciates your help in trying to get him out from this hole he is digging.

you are right, i appreciate it, but don't feel i need it. everything fresco says could be something i said, he obviously understands what i am talking about. i never claimed my words to be anything spiritual or helpful toward any persons, let alone mankind. i never capitalised words like god or enlightenment or showed any respect for them. i repeated over and over again that i am nothing, there is nothing. and from all that, your accusation is that i am some 'delusional' spiritualist who wants to change the world with my vision.

no, i am revolting against that whole idea. do nothing.

1 Reply

@carnaticmystery,

carnaticmystery wrote:

Quote:
If there both "is" and "is not" an infinity which lies between the two different infinities identified by Georg Cantor, which of course won Paul Cohen the Fields Medal in mathematics, then that IS...what IS.

no it is not. it is only your presumption that something is, which tells you that.

if there both "is" and "is not", this paradox points to what i am saying that there is no truth. ie. anything that "is" can also be seen to be "not" existing from a different perspective, therefore nothing "is" absolutely, everything both "is" and "is not" simultaenously.

Quote:
take another look at what CM has written about "truth"...and you will see he is not talking about the word "truth" at all...but about the concept of truth. He means what he says: He "believes" "there is no truth"...and because this guess is so important to him, he will stick with it no matter what.

you take another look, why should fresco, who already understands me perfectly? i don't believe anything. if you stopped believing anything, you would see the 'truth' that there is no truth. but you believe the 'reality' that you experience. you believe that some reality definitely exists, and all your logical enquiries come from this basic assumption. you think it is so definite that to question it is 'absurd'. this is the only basic difference between us. i am happy to accept it and move on, you are getting boring now.

Quote:
I have no idea of what the REALITY is...so I cannot discount it. I am merely pointing out that it is NOT NECESSARILY so...and cannot be asserted that way.

nobody has any idea, nobody can discount any 'possibility'. nothing is 'necessarily so'. nothing can be asserted.

all those 'assertions' as you will define them are simple logical responses to your comments, and they are substantiated by everything i have written in this thread. they are only 'true' in the limited sense of the word, within the context of assuming some 'reality' in this argument. and they are only 'true' from my point of view, from yours, they are false (probably).

get it? therefore there is no absolute truth.

Quote:
And if CM truly feels that way also (which is what he is pretending he does)...he could just as easily not bring it up at all...or to bring it up in a more circumspect rendering.

not pretending anything. why would i not bring it up? i felt like talking about non-existence, so i did. why should i be more circumspect, i am ready to answer and have answered all responses. if this is too deep for you, find another thread.

Quote:
But I am sure he appreciates your help in trying to get him out from this hole he is digging.

you are right, i appreciate it, but don't feel i need it. everything fresco says could be something i said, he obviously understands what i am talking about. i never claimed my words to be anything spiritual or helpful toward any persons, let alone mankind. i never capitalised words like god or enlightenment or showed any respect for them. i repeated over and over again that i am nothing, there is nothing. and from all that, your accusation is that i am some 'delusional' spiritualist who wants to change the world with my vision.

no, i am revolting against that whole idea. do nothing.

Once again...a mishmash of gruel not fit consumption. Learn to show some respect for your thoughts...then maybe others will show respect for them.

For you to be suggesting that I am the one doing the "believing" is something out of science fiction.

I do not do any "believing."

The belief system at work here is yours...and you don't seem to have the spine to own up to it...which is the reason you walk all around it in posts when it suits you.

Hey, it doesn't make you a bad guy. It does make you unreliable, though.

You (supposedly) acknowledge that you have no idea if reality exists or not...yet you constantly assert it does not. You (supposedly) acknowledge that you have no idea if truth exists or not...yet you constantly assert it does not.

If ever the expression "Discussing with him is like trying to nail Jello to the ceiling" ever applies...it applies to you, CM.

Try picking out one single thing...and offering it in a non-rambling, coherent paragraph or two...and stick with it rather than taking the other side the moment it is challenged...

...and I will gladly discuss it with you.

Or you could try discussing this thing with Fresco.

That should be fun to watch.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Your mind is closed around this messianic fantasy you have built for yourself that you are going to reveal some divine truth for the world to use to understand itself better.

i have no fantasies. the only things i 'build' are these words as i say them. i definitely don't believe in any 'divine truth', thats what i am arguing against. i don't believe in a world to understand anything better.

Quote:

We get guys like you here from time to time...and most of the regulars just let them do their thing and finally move on to another forum in search of disciples.

I get a kick out of people like you...and I am here to banter with you (just about the only one!)

cool story bro.

Quote:

I can see that you realize that the foundation of your Revelation is built on mud and sand...so you try the gambit of "I really don't know but I think it is so"...but the truth (!) of the matter, CM, is that you are devoted to the belief system built around "there is no reality...and there is no truth."

that gambit is the only 'truth' that exists. 'i really don't know but i think it is so'. that is the actual truth about every so-called fact in this universe. it is great that all the statements you make up to ridicule me prove to be gems to prove my point perfectly! thanks again.

Quote:

Nobody here (or anywhere else) should show significant respect for your ravings, CM, because you don't show much respect for them yourself.

some people respect humility. fresco seems to show significant respect to me. as have many others. but i will make sure to tell them all that the great frank disapproves.

Quote:

You write jumbled, illogical commentary filled with speculation presented as if it were revelation from on high.

and yet others find it logical. seriously, not just fresco, read pretty much anything on nonduality which all says the exact same thing. i am not claiming these ideas as my own at all, which is why its funny that you are getting so angry at me, as if i feel i came up with nonduality myself. you are just threatened by the 'truth' of nonduality slowly dawning on you. i am sorry, you will get over it with 'time'. haha.

Quote:

Your thesis is poorly conceived; poorly presented; and apparently you do not have enough respect for what you are trying to sell to edit your exposition to any decent, comprehensible structure.

i have no thesis, other than 'there is no truth'. if that is poorly presented, then sorry:
There is no truth.

i am not trying to sell anything, i don't believe in the concept of respect which implies duality.

my words are very decent and comprehensible to many others. except poor old frank. my apologies again sir.

Quote:

Anyway...you have presented NOTHING to back up your assertions that there is no reality...and that there is no truth. You've simply stated those two pillars of this thing of yours as truths (strange as that is)...and then further asserted that it all is either "self-evident" (which it decidedly is not) or that "the only 'evidence' that exists points directly to the idea that 'there is no truth'" (which also is fantasy on your part.)

if anything i say = nothing, then ok i have presented nothing. otherwise, i have explained what i am saying in heaps of different ways.

again, the statements you have said to prove me wrong are correct statements in my opinion. it is all self evident, and all evidence that exists points directly to it.

it is self evident in that everything in your experience is evidence of what i am saying. your entire experience is one single constant phenomenon, switching between waking consciousness, dream consciousness and deep sleep 'emptiness'. that emptiness is the proof of what i am saying.

just as you claim that your waking experience proves 'reality', i am claiming that an absolute lack of experience (deep sleep, meditative states) proves nothingness. because absolute nothingness and absolute somethingness are a contradiction, it eliminates the possibility of either as an absolute truth. both are 'experienced' and 'not experienced' daily by every human.

Quote:

If there is no reality...that would be the REALITY. The comment "there is no reality" is an absurdity. The comment "there MAY BE no reality" is equally absurd, but at least it has the flavor of someone with an open mind on the subject, rather than someone devoted to this facet of a belief system.

it is you who is devoted to the belief in an absolute reality beyond yourself. if you truly and honestly only look at your own experience, and look completely, you will see the obvious truth that it is unverifiable. not necessarily existent except by its own definition. but the very experience, which creates this definition of itself as a real existence , is only a periodic experience. the very experience which defines itself as absolutely real, is absolutely non-existent on a regular basis.

Quote:

Interesting nonsense, CM...and you should work on actually understanding it and develop better skills at handling disinclination toward it. Then work on your presentation. Posting these garbage posts is no way to sell something as unsaleable as this.

see, you call the whole topic 'interesting'. you want me to 'work on understanding it', 'develop better skills at handling disinclination toward it'. all stupid concepts, in my opinion, coming from someone who believes in a reality and wants things. why should i work on my 'presentation', i am not presenting anything to anyone. only you define my posts as garbage. i am not selling anything. non duality is not a concept which can be sold or bought.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Once again...a mishmash of gruel not fit consumption. Learn to show some respect for your thoughts...then maybe others will show respect for them.

i am teaching you not to respect anything. i don't want your respect.

Quote:

For you to be suggesting that I am the one doing the "believing" is something out of science fiction.

you believe in reality. i believe nothing. simple

Quote:

I do not do any "believing."

you believe reality.

Quote:

The belief system at work here is yours...and you don't seem to have the spine to own up to it...which is the reason you walk all around it in posts when it suits you.

i believe nothing.

Quote:

Hey, it doesn't make you a bad guy. It does make you unreliable, though.

i don't exist.

Quote:

You (supposedly) acknowledge that you have no idea if reality exists or not...yet you constantly assert it does not. You (supposedly) acknowledge that you have no idea if truth exists or not...yet you constantly assert it does not.

i 'assert' that it does not 'absolutely'. i also assert that my assertions are not assertions. i acknowledge that i have no idea about anything, nor does anybody else, nor does anyone exist, in my opinion. i have given plenty of experiential proof as to why i opine this way.

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If ever the expression "Discussing with him is like trying to nail Jello to the ceiling" ever applies...it applies to you, CM.

'if ever the expression', thanks for the english.

Quote:

Try picking out one single thing...and offering it in a non-rambling, coherent paragraph or two...and stick with it rather than taking the other side the moment it is challenged...

i never pick anything. i just read through your drivel and then respond individually to each of your pointless comments.

Quote:

...and I will gladly discuss it with you.

congrats. i have nothing to discuss with you.

Quote:

Or you could try discussing this thing with Fresco.

we have nothing to discuss. he just seems to jump in when i am too slow and the idiocy of your comments shines too bright for him to resist.

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