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The second amendment

 
 
chemsoldier1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 10:20 am
How about gun ownership not strictly from a second ammendment standpoint, but from one of self-defense? For instance, if I have a right to defend myself if attacked, do I have a right to BE ABLE to defend myself? If I am in a wheelchair I have a hard time fist fighting with an assailant. But with a gun, even a parapalegic or someone with back problems can defend themselves. If an able bodied person is allowed to defend themselves shouldnt the disabled be afforded the same opportunity?
OBTW, hey Emclean, you know they have spellcheck on this sight dont you killer? Smile
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:46 am
Welcome to A2K, and you are right, on this 'sight' we have spell check. ;-)

chemsoldier1, the "right to self defense" argument is an interesting one. Do you apply it to WMD as well? I've always wanted a nuke.

Incidentally do nations have a similar right to WMDs?
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 11:50 am
I've always thought a good way to mobilize our nukes would be to strap them to Winebagos. That'd be a hell of a deterrent, imagine Joe Schmoe out in the middle of bum-f-ck nowhere with a six-pack and a Polaris.
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chemsoldier1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:17 pm
I think we have to distinguish between individual rights and the rights of nations. There are two different standards of justice. In the case of the individual justice you cannot allow a murderer to go free. But in the case of countries in conflict, in the interest of peace you sometimes grant amnesty to people who commit atrocities and the like.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:21 pm
Ok, but my point was that people talk of rights that make sense and apply them to arguments as if they were absolutes. They are not, and even those who use them that way usually recognize it.

Here are a few examples:

"Right to happiness"

Having sex with _____ would make me happy. But her right to happiness mitigates mine. Damn.

"Right to self-defense"

Sure, but all acknowledge that there are limitations (otherwise gimme my damn nuke!) so the issue is not really the right itself but where said limitations should be.

When arguing about guns, it's not an argument for the right to self-defense, it's an argument about the appropriateness of varying kinds of self defense.

There are nations that ban guns wherein the right to self-defense is not waived.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:23 pm
You ain't gettin' no nukes, CdK, we've been down this road before, an' it ain't agonna happen . . . give it up !
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:23 pm
But I have a RIGHT to self defense!
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:39 pm
I wonder if anyone's ever tried duck hunting with a SAM?
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emclean
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:02 pm
yep, it is killed, cleaned, and cooked all at once.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:07 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
But I have a RIGHT to self defense!

If you follow joefromchicago, you don't have a right to personal self defense because the right to hold and bear arms is tied to the states maintaining their militia. On the other hand, nukes do make the militia more effective, so Setanta is indeed infringing on your Second Amendment rights in denying you the right to hold and bear them. Shame on you, Setanta!
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sevensixtwo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:21 pm
nukes
so now if someone breaks into our house we should have the right to drop a nuke on them? nobody needs a nuke, not even an entire country. world leader...etc... the simple fact is, the only way to use a nuke is to plan ahead, you have to get out of the vicinity, or else you are commiting suicide(which is already illegal...funny as that may be) planning ahead is commiting murder, because if you kill someone without it being a spontaneous threat to life, its pre-meditated homicide.

as for the right to keep and bear arms, i think nothing should be illegal, in the way of non explosive firearms, that is to say, tracer rounds, though highly flamable, should still be legal, however, javlin missles, should remain in the hands of the US army. lets face it, nobody has a practical use for a rocket propelled grenade, not even for recreational uses. however, things like automatic AK-47's, they should be restricted, as they are today, but they should still be available. and semi-autos should have no restrictions, background check that should be all that's required. same with bolt action, lever action, all those good things. high-cap mags dont make murder more easily achieved. nor do pistol grip handles, bayonette lugs, or those infamous folding stocks. if anything is illegal, it should be sarah brady lying to the american public and misleading every person who is neutral on the issue just to swing votes to the anti-gun side of the table, like when she said that automatics were very prevelent before the institution of the 1994 assault weapons ban....when in fact, that ban only hurts hunters and target shooters, not murderers. i recently went shooting with an ar-15 from olympic arms, for those who dont know what im talking about, it looks like an m-16 or m4. this was pre-ban though, and it also had high cap mags, over 10rnds, 30 rnds to be exact, it made shooting a lot easier and a much more enjoyable experience. after 10 rounds you hardly feel like loading another clip, but after 30 you can go out and check your groups while your gun cools, instead of reloading all the time.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 02:00 pm
Thomas wrote:
On the other hand, nukes do make the militia more effective, so Setanta is indeed infringing on your Second Amendment rights in denying you the right to hold and bear them. Shame on you, Setanta!


Oh thanks, Thomas, now i'm gonna hafta pony up and pay for the psychological evaluation on CdK to keep nukes outta his hands. Smooth move, Exlax.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 02:02 pm
Thomas wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:
But I have a RIGHT to self defense!

If you follow joefromchicago, you don't have a right to personal self defense because the right to hold and bear arms is tied to the states maintaining their militia.


Only if they are the same rights, they are not.

Quote:
On the other hand, nukes do make the militia more effective, so Setanta is indeed infringing on your Second Amendment rights in denying you the right to hold and bear them. Shame on you, Setanta!


The bastard!
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 02:12 pm
Re: nukes
sevensixtwo wrote:
so now if someone breaks into our house we should have the right to drop a nuke on them?


Obviously not. This is why the right for self-defense is not the same as the right to own, operate or carry specific weaponry.

Quote:
nobody needs a nuke, not even an entire country. world leader...etc...



I assure you that I need nukes. Many of my plans cannot proceed without several of them.

Quote:
the simple fact is, the only way to use a nuke is to plan ahead, you have to get out of the vicinity, or else you are commiting suicide(which is already illegal...funny as that may be) planning ahead is commiting murder, because if you kill someone without it being a spontaneous threat to life, its pre-meditated homicide.


It can be construed as "self-defense" in that it's a deterrent.

Quote:
as for the right to keep and bear arms, i think nothing should be illegal, in the way of non explosive firearms, that is to say, tracer rounds, though highly flamable, should still be legal, however, javlin missles, should remain in the hands of the US army.


Here you are drawing a line on how far the "self-defense" argument can go. This was the point of the exercise.

Quote:
lets face it, nobody has a practical use for a rocket propelled grenade, not even for recreational uses.


I assure you that I have many uses for both.

Quote:
however, things like automatic AK-47's, they should be restricted, as they are today, but they should still be available. and semi-autos should have no restrictions, background check that should be all that's required.


See how the concern parts company with the "self-defense"argument? There are lines that even pro-gun folk draw.

Quote:
same with bolt action, lever action, all those good things. high-cap mags dont make murder more easily achieved.


More easily than what? Using a large stone is, in my exprience, difficult.

Quote:
nor do pistol grip handles, bayonette lugs, or those infamous folding stocks. if anything is illegal, it should be sarah brady lying to the american public and misleading every person who is neutral on the issue just to swing votes to the anti-gun side of the table, like when she said that automatics were very prevelent before the institution of the 1994 assault weapons ban....when in fact, that ban only hurts hunters and target shooters, not murderers.


"Guns should not be illegal. Lying should."

Tough sell, tough sell. I think I'll have my nukes before you get that one past the public.

Quote:
i recently went shooting with an ar-15 from olympic arms, for those who dont know what im talking about, it looks like an m-16 or m4. this was pre-ban though, and it also had high cap mags, over 10rnds, 30 rnds to be exact, it made shooting a lot easier and a much more enjoyable experience.


I shot one in Brazil for a whole weekend. It cost me a lot of money (in Brazil the rounds are much more expensive than here in the states) so I obviously enjoyed it.

But I still think they should be restricted to sporting locations.

Quote:
after 10 rounds you hardly feel like loading another clip, but after 30 you can go out and check your groups while your gun cools, instead of reloading all the time.


We were shooting old military vehicles. Then the vehicles would be dragged to the entry of the jungle. Coming in was spooky, you'd drive up a road lined with bullet ridden automobiles while hearing gunshots in the distance.

Great fun, not as fun as nukes but still fun. Should still be illegal by my estimation.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 02:12 pm
[img]SUPPOSED TO BE A PICTURE OF CRAVEN HERE[/img] http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WADVAsEcFziHVETVViHqJ1MPWbdLVdjW5pMaIiMWhoJpaueWSYhR0OG5Bne*qb4O45brqLeh*6FQwBT3N99D1kz4OqmKOC*8ybURU6QMfhhr1qL7MKyH!6Beo1xdfVk6VAAAAP****8/winnebago.jpg http://www.phatnav.com/wiki/upload/c/c3/Atomic_blast.jpg
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emclean
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 02:18 pm
craven, dude if you come up to shoot, please leve the nukes at home, i like my range how it is.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 02:22 pm
All my friends insist I leave my toys at home too. :-(
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 02:23 am
Second Amendment Poll
The poll concerning the Second Amendment provided four responses.

My choice is: NONE OF THE ABOVE.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 08:36 am
Re: Second Amendment Poll
Debra_Law wrote:
The Second Amendment provides:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The supreme law of our land explicitly mandates that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed! The right to keep and bear arms is a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT.

Why do you ignore that part of the amendment that relates to a "well regulated militia?" Is that clause mere surplusage?
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2004 01:48 pm
Re: Second Amendment Poll
joefromchicago wrote:
Why do you ignore that part of the amendment that relates to a "well regulated militia?" Is that clause mere surplusage?


Amendment II contains a declaration: A well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state.

I believe most states have a constitutional provision or statute that defines who belongs to the "militia." Basically, every able-bodied man (and woman--see the Equal Protection Clause) is a member of the "militia." The militia consists of ordinary citizens who work at their non-military occupations--but when an emergency arises--they are called to arms.

The United States of America is a republic--it is not a democracy. That means we are a nation ruled by laws. (And note, the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land and preempts any inferior laws that are in conflict.) We are not a nation ruled by the mob. The majority of the people may not deprive the minority of the people of their fundamental rights.

The constitution is the supreme law of the land. The constitution explicitly declares that a well regulated militia is NECESSARY . . . the constitution says what it means and it means what it says. It makes no difference if the mob / majority says "NO, a militia is NOT necessary--not today." It makes no difference if the government shirks its duty to organize and train the militia for emergency preparedness. The militia exists--regulated or not--and its existence is NECESSARY for the security of a free state.

Congress cannot pass a law declaring that the militia is no longer necessary because such a law would contradict the supreme law of the land and therefore be unconstitutional.

Even with the declaration of the necessity of a militia, the mandate that follows is NOT limited to members of the militia. The Second Amendment mandates, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right that shall not be infringed by either the federal or state government.

The substantive due process component of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the states from infringing upon fundamental rights.
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