I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

So self-sacrifice, giving of yourself to save others, isn't part of being enlightened?

There are stories of those on the path to enlightenment sacrificing their lives for others but Buddhas don't operate like that... it would be like killing oneself in a dream to save someone in one's dream... when one wakes up it is seen as not necessary. What is necessary is to show how to wake people up who want to be awoken from their dreams.

1 Reply

@igm,

hmmm.

There are several people I would gladly give my life for; my kids, for example.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

There are several people I would gladly give my life for; my kids, for example.

So would I. Buddha's don't have kids once they are enlightened... they see everyone as equal and death for all is seen as like the end of one dream and the beginning of another. Just like when we go to sleep at night we become unconscious (death like) and then begin a dream (new life) then it ends (death like again) and then begins the next dream (another life) and so on and so on. Some die at in the womb, some at birth, some young, some middle aged, and some old... round and round... suffering after suffering until they wake up to unconditioned happiness, the experience of the true nature of reality, ineffable and unelaborated.

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@igm,

Quote:

...suffering after suffering until they wake up to unconditioned happiness, the experience of the true nature of reality, ineffable and unelaborated.

Not truly sure if you are just kidding here...trying to get a rise.

If not...if this really is an example of the logic and truth of Buddhism...then you are sorta making the point I have had so much trouble making.

Buddhism...at least the kind shown here...is merely guessing about REALITY...and then claiming it is some revealed truth.

This is just a guess, of course. But there is at least as much foundation for my guess as for the guess you are trying to pass off as revealed truth about the true nature of REALITY.

Nothing wrong with doing this, igm. But recognizing it and acknowledging it , in my opinion, would be a vast improvement over where you are now.

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@igm,

Hi igm,

I think you may be confused by my postings. I'm not interested in becoming Buddhist, I'm interested in what the religion is about (to a degree anyway). I also don't rudely turn away JW's or Mormons - I talk to them, and sometimes ask about their beliefs...but I'm not interested in joining their religion.

You did ask for people to ask questions, so I thought I'd take the opportunity.

In regards to grief, many things are a matter of perspective. Not mourning the loss of a loved one does seem inhuman to me, and even a little sad...but that could be a lack of understanding on my part - I'm incredibly dubious that it would be (it does seem against nature), but it could be.

Quote:

but there is all the suffering that unenlightened people have to suffer.

Uh...that is such a broad statement.

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@vikorr,

Do Buddha's marry and have kids?

And how are Buddha's different to Buddhists?

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

I think you may be confused by my postings. I'm not interested in becoming Buddhist,

I'm not sure why you'd think I thought that? It's definitely not going to appeal to many in the West currently... I have no problem at all with that.

I'm happy right now to stop if no one asks another question that will be fine by me. If someone does ask and I can think of a response worthwhile posting then I might respond.... that has always been the case with this thread.

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Do Buddha's marry and have kids?

And how are Buddha's different to Buddhists?

I posted this earlier in response to a question from Max... it may help:

http://able2know.org/topic/220485-29#post-5439415

1 Reply

@igm,

Romeo asked- "As a matter of interest, are the Buddhist monks who burn themselves and do street protests against their governments happy and enlightened?"

igm replied:

Quote:

No... I'd say they are confused about what the Buddha taught... a very human quality.. in this case an extreme one... and they in my opinion are very confused.
Christ was crucified but innocent (he let himself be crucified if the story is historically correct) in a sense it could be seen as like those who set themselves on fire.

Ah, so there are confused Buddhist monks around! Just like Christianity as there are many confused christians around.. Wink

But I wouldn't compare Jesus to a suicidal buddhist monk because he did ask God the night before he was executed to try to get him out of it-
“My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”(Matt 26:42)

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@igm,

Oops, I read that and forgot.

So the end result of world enlightenment is no one at all (because there would be no one left to have kids)...I guess that would indeed end human suffering.

Wouldn't that create a problem for rebirth?

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I find it virtually impossible to participate meaningfully in this thread as it has evolved. The assumptions underpinning most assertions and questions are so far off the mark that one cannot begin to address them. Please read some books on the subject, preferrably from the zen or theravadan emphasis.

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@igm,

Quote:

Buddha's don't have kids once they are enlightened...

I have to admit there is logic behind this. If everyone stopped having kids then human suffering would end in a generation.

Interestingly, there are several Christian sects that have had this idea too (the Shakers for instance).

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Oops, I read that and forgot.

So the end result of world enlightenment is no one at all (because there would be no one left to have kids)...I guess that would indeed end human suffering.

Wouldn't that create a problem for rebirth?

Reality which every sentient being participates in would continue. It would end rebirth but that would not be a problem as rebirth is the gateway to suffering compared to returning to reality's true nature, the experience of which is unconditioned happiness.

Buddhists don't believe that the population of this world is all there is to sentient life... there are infinite sentient beings... when thought of in a conventional truth way... ultimately there is just reality and that is beyond elaboration.

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@maxdancona,

Catholic bishops do not marry either. It's a natural choice if one chooses to make their beliefs a sole priority. No one expects all of humanity to make that choice in any case.

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@igm,

Hi igm,

That didn't actually answer my question.

Hi IRFrank,

Yes, if that were the way of it, that would be sensible enough...but then isn't enlightenment the way to end suffering, and the end goal of buddhism to end suffering? So the 'logic' of the belief would dictate that if it were ever achieved, no one at all would have kids? One of tests that I apply to my own beliefs is 'what is the end result'.

I'm guessing that igm's views may not be the only type of buddhist view? (err, there are different branches, right? Who may believe something different in this regard?)

Hi JL,

As I mentioned to igm a bit earlier - I'm curious about buddhist beliefs, but not so curious I'm going to go read a whole book on it.

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@vikorr,

While all Buddhist seek enlightenment, there are different 'levels', just as all Christians are not priests or pastors. All Buddhists are not monks.

It's going to be difficult to get anything other than a superficial understanding without some study. That's your choice of course, but criticism should be tempered without more understanding.

After this thread, I've reached that conclusion myself and intend to refrain from my own criticism of others beliefs.

I'm not meaning to be smug, I've just realized I've posted some mean spirited comments myself.

There are many kinds of Buddhism. More than I know for sure.

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@vikorr,

Vikorr, and reading books wouldn't do the job anyway--I was just hoping that the reading of books by adepts of the meditative disciplines of Buddhism (and other religions) would obviate some of the misunderstandings seen in this thread. But a genuine participation in the heart of Buddhism requires--as I see it--a great investment in meditation. Belief is not central to the practice and orientation of Buddhism--for example, the belief that E=MC2 generates peace of mind and sanity.

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@JLNobody,

Hi Frank, I think you mistake me. I'm not criticising Buddhism - I'm running the same tests that I do on myself. Thanks for the explanation that their are different levels. That makes fine sense. I’m sure it’s not quite as simple as that, but that’s okay.

Hi JLN, I understand I only have a minimal understanding of Buddhism. And I figured that it would need some practice (as in ‘doing’) or meditation or both to understand some aspects…there are conversations I don’t engage in myself, because I would have no way to explain them properly…but from practice I see ‘the concept’ works, and is valid.

That is to say, from the little I’ve been told from multiple sources, it does seem to contain within it a series of educated guesses (if I can use that phrase) about how our mind works.

None of that is to say we shouldn’t ask questions or tests beliefs when the opportunity presents itself Very Happy

P.S. getting a lecture on it is also much less interesting than asking probing questions.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

I didn't mean to say you were. I suppose that was a valid inference. I was relating my own experience. I would agree with JL that it takes more than reading books. Practice is required. I first got started with Buddhism through reading. I read because the teachings made sense and helped me understand why I was doing some things and I learned to stop causing myself grief. I found an awareness that helped me.

Once I joined a ganden, community, and started meditating with a Buddhist nun I became aware of much more. Now others can write that off as illusion, but they have no awareness of those experiences. So their dismissal means little to me.

So, if one is just looking for reasons to write Buddhism off as just another illusory religion, that can be easily done. And if that satisfies, fine. If you really
want to find out if there is anything meaningful in the teachings it takes more effort and time.

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@IRFRANK,

Yes, indeed. Frank.

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I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

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