I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

@igm,

Quote:

This unconditioned happiness does not depend on circumstances and remains undisturbed at all times but does not distract one from everyday life.

Hi igm,

I think I asked this before :

Why is it that you experience just unconditioned happiness?

You previously stated that it is the natural state (I think).

Our genes dictate that we can experience happiness, sadness/grief, angry, fear, etc in our range of emotions. If we were truly to experience an unconditioned state, then would not we feel all those emotions (each at appropriate times), rather than just one?

I would find it odd if a person didn't feel grief or sadness at the loss of a loved one.

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole point of life is happiness, but your viewpoint strikes me as missing something.

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Vikorr said- "I think the whole point of life is happiness"
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I'd go a step further and say a 100% happy life is near-impossible, so I think the whole point of life is learning how to put up with unhappiness, just as a dog learns to put up with the fleas on its back.. Smile

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@igm,

Quote:

Eventually this is replaced by unconditioned happiness something that the senses ‘can’ detect,

Our mind forms neural connections as we learn. The more we learn in a particular area, the greater the number of neural connections. These neural connections aren't dependant on whether or not what we learn is true or false - they just are.

Any number of deeply religious people, who form many, many neural connections regarding their faith, claim they can sense God.

Given the above two : Are you sure that what you are learning over time isn't multiple interlinked neural connections maintaining an underlying happiness (ie a conditioned happiness), rather than an 'unconditioned happiness'?

Again, nothing wrong with that if it is the case - it would in fact be a rather good thing.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Quote:

I'd go a step further and say a 100% happy life is near-impossible, so I think the whole point of life is learning how to put up with unhappiness, just as a dog learns to put up with the fleas on its back

To my way of thinking, that's actually a step backwards.

It is impossible to have a 100% happy life...and the 'whole point of life is happiness' to me means 'that is what we move forward towards happiness'. 'Putting up with unhappiness' is actually contrary to that viewpoint (it suggests static motion, rather than 'moving toward happiness').

If you take that one step further - sometimes you appear to be stuck in an unhappy situation, and you bear that...but underlying that is your constant efforts to turn that situation into happiness, or preparing to move to a place where happiness can exist.

Discussion on 'how to turn that situation into happiness' could be a whole series of topics in itself.

Just my view Smile

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Why is it that you experience just unconditioned happiness?

I would find it odd if a person didn't feel grief or sadness at the loss of a loved one.

Hi vikorr, I did say this in the post you are questioning:

igm wrote:

Why is it better to understand that the true nature of reality is beyond elaboration, rather than saying, 'I don't know what it is and anyone who says they do I suspect is guessing.'? The reason is that I have (to some extent) realized the true nature of reality is beyond elaboration and therefore experience unconditioned happiness; which is happiness that remains whether in pain or unwell or in the midst of any kind of negative circumstance or misfortune. One still has empathy and loving kindness and compassion so it is not like a drug that prevents one living a normal life. It is a life that helps and interacts with others; the unconditioned happiness is a hidden experience that enhances life and health for those Buddhists who can settle the mind in this unelaborated state and then enter everyday life.

One understands others' e.g. grief via empathy and compassion but although pain can be felt, grief cannot if one is fully enlightened i.e. a Buddha. It is possible to feel grief if one is not fully enlightened but as it recedes the unconditioned happiness is noticed once more and reasserts itself... grief is like a distortion of it or an ignoring of it.. so to speak but one understands the circumstance fully even though one does not suffer grief if one is fully enlightened... after all death is part of life.

Even ordinary people often eventually begin to feel happiness once more (conditioned happiness) after some time has passed and the grief recedes... so perhaps in that way you can see how it is possible to feel grief for much less time or not at all but still care deeply for those who are grief stricken.

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Are you sure that what you are learning over time isn't multiple interlinked neural connections maintaining an underlying happiness (ie a conditioned happiness), rather than an 'unconditioned happiness'?

Again, nothing wrong with that if it is the case - it would in fact be a rather good thing.

If I encounter suffering i.e. pain I can simultaneously experience happiness. The pain and the happiness are not connected. Pain does not end happiness. Pain arises due to the cause of it and the conditions required. Unconditioned happiness remains in the background at every moment and prevents negative emotions because negative emotions arise when we feel unhappy and not when we are happy. Therefore continuous happiness prevents negative feelings but not positive ones such as love and compassion and does not block wisdom or intelligence but wisdom and intelligence are not needed to gain happiness because one always has it thus freeing ones time up to help others if asked and if possible.

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Vikorr said- "It is impossible to have a 100% happy life...and the 'whole point of life is happiness' to me means 'that is what we move forward towards happiness'"
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Yes, ending unhappiness is what we all want, but to totally eliminate unhappiness 100% is probably impossible, so the only option is to learn how to put up with the unhappy things that we can't change.
If we can learn how to do that, we become happier!
For me, Christianity does the trick because it gives us the mindset of being able to roll with the punches life throws at us.. Smile

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@igm,

It makes it very difficult to work out what you are saying when you use the word 'pain' - 'pain' is a product of what our nerves send our brain when we suffer physical injury.

It appears you are using 'pain' in place of sadness, anger etc? Or that you mean it literally, or that you are talking about both. I cannot tell what you mean by it.

It makes it doubly difficult to know what you are talking about when you use the term 'negative emotions' - you might think 'sadness' is a negative emotion...could you be more specific?

And why is it that grief doesn't exist in enlightenment? Does enlightenment include a belief in rebirth?....just guessing.

So far, I still suspect that this may be a conditioned happiness, or even a product of conditioned happiness & conditionless happiness - even if it underlies everything else.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Quote:

Yes, ending unhappiness is what we all want, but to totally eliminate unhappiness 100% is probably impossible, so the only option is to learn how to put up with the unhappy things that we can't change.

I disagree with the red - it is not the only option.

You can't always control the outside world...but your inner world is yours. You can always move your inner world towards happiness.

Quote:

If we can learn how to do that, we become happier!

Ummm...by your above quote - you are putting up with unhappiness - that can't, by definition, make you happier.

Quote:

For me, Christianity does the trick because it gives us the mindset of being able to roll with the punches life throws at us

And how is it that you 'roll with them'? And why does this make you happier? I think if you look at it - built into your coping mechanism is a hope for happiness...a belief that you'll move towards happiness, rather than 'just coping with unhappiness'.

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@vikorr,

Let me clarify-
I've just been bedridden for 3 days with a fever, chills and bad headache, unable to eat, and sleeping semi-deliriously on and off round the clock.
I took aspirins which helped the headache a bit, but on the whole i certainly wasn't happy, but there was absolutely nothing further I could do about it except soldier on and ride it out.
I accepted the situation, and that acceptance gave me an inner peace and balanced out the unhappiness to some degree, what more could I do?

Same when my mother died 14 years ago, I was unhappy but said to myself "Okay she's gone and is never coming back and there's nothing I can do about it", so accepting it gave me some peace and I just got on with my life.
My point is that if we can't do a thing about an unhappy situation, we can at least often lessen the pain by accepting that we can't do a thing about it.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

If I may :

Quote:

I've just been bedridden for 3 days with a fever, chills and bad headache, unable to eat, and sleeping semi-deliriously on and off round the clock.
I took aspirins which helped the headache a bit, but on the whole i certainly wasn't happy, but there was absolutely nothing further I could do about it except soldier on and ride it out.
I accepted the situation, and that acceptance gave me an inner peace and balanced out the unhappiness to some degree, what more could I do?

vikorr wrote:

You can't always control the outside world...but your inner world is yours. You can always move your inner world towards happiness.

You actually agree with me.

You didn't just 'put up with it'. You did something in your inner world (you accepted it - that's in your inner world) that moved you away from unhappiness... where you said 'doing so gave me inner peace'.

Ie. It appears that you agree that you can't control the outer world, but you can control your inner world.

Besides, happiness is a state of mind, and it can be quite relative...it doesn't necessarily mean you are jumping for joy happy. Even in grief you can find positives (again...controlling your inner world) - this is what people do when they have Eulogies etc.

vikorr wrote:

If you take that one step further - sometimes you appear to be stuck in an unhappy situation, and you bear that...but underlying that is your constant efforts to turn that situation into happiness, or preparing to move to a place where happiness can exist.

Finding the positives in grief...letting go of the unhappy things you can do nothing about...These are all part of moving towards happiness.

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

It makes it very difficult to work out what you are saying when you use the word 'pain' - 'pain' is a product of what our nerves send our brain when we suffer physical injury.

I define pain as that caused by 'physical' pain e.g a headache or injury or by illness e.g. flu etc.

vikorr wrote:

It makes it doubly difficult to know what you are talking about when you use the term 'negative emotions' - you might think 'sadness' is a negative emotion...could you be more specific?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleshas_(Buddhism)

vikorr wrote:

And why is it that grief doesn't exist in enlightenment? Does enlightenment include a belief in rebirth?....just guessing.

For a Buddha (and for others but they do not realize it), there is no self to grieve and no other to grieve about and therefore no cause for grief, there is just reality which is beyond elaboration... Buddhas have realized this and others have not. To grieve one needs to feel 'I' have lost someone and there exists someone 'other' and then the cause for grief can arise. If one has unconditioned happiness then grief cannot occupy that experience at the same time so it does not arise but one still has (for others who grieve) empathy, loving kindness and compassion and one understands that they grieve and why they grieve. Also they understand how to end grief because they understand its root cause and can therefore end it and be freed up to help those who at the moment cannot... all they can do is grieve for as long as the causes and conditions for it last.

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@vikorr,

Glad you people are all “happy.” Nice to see there are so many apparently happy people around with whom to converse.

Me…well, I prefer not to use “happy” and instead like to think that I am content.

I often mention that if there is a “Heaven”…and if I were given “Heaven” as a reward for some reason…this life I am living is what I would choose to be that Heaven. . There are hard times (going through the cancer treatment was a bitch, for instance)…and unhappy times (some untimely deaths can be a bitch also)…but on average, life is great.

According to igm, the Buddha KNEW how to end suffering…and could teach other people how to end suffering. Igm also asserts that the Buddha KNOWS there is no self and no soul…and so igm also asserts there is no self and no soul…and that this is KEY to ending suffering and attaining a state of non-suffering that apparently is described as “enlightenment.”

Sounds like nothing more than a religion to me…a bunch of ideas strung together and offered as “the” answer to…whatever.

Whata ya think, Vikorr? Does this make me a hypocrite in your estimation also?

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@Frank Apisa,

Gotta go to work now...and this afternoon will be devoted to the NFL. I'll try to respond to any responses, but I may not be able to do so 'til tomorrow.

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@igm,

Thanks igm, I can work out what you were saying now.

I do have an issue with this :

Quote:

For a Buddha (and for others but they do not realize it), there is no self to grieve and no other to grieve about and therefore no cause for grief, there is just reality which is beyond elaboration... Buddhas have realized this and others have not. To grieve one needs to feel 'I' have lost someone and there exists someone 'other' and then the cause for grief can arise. If one has unconditioned happiness then grief cannot occupy that experience at the same time so it does not arise but one still has (for others who grieve) empathy, loving kindness and compassion and one understands that they grieve and why they grieve. Also they understand how to end grief because they understand its root cause and can therefore end it and be freed up to help those who at the moment cannot... all they can do is grieve for as long as the causes and conditions for it last.

I find this view to remove humanity to humanity.

'Attachment' is a natural state of being to those close to us. Grief/sadness is a natural state of being when a loved one is lost, and it is temporary...so it doesn't stop people from living a happy life...it is not something to fear...it is not bad... it is a testament to the affect of a loved one in our lives, and the loss of that wonderful influence.

(Of course Grief can become destructive...as most things in excess seem to be able to do.)

As for the 'I' or 'self' - I think people who have followed my posts in those sorts of threads (few as they are) realise I think whether 'I' or 'self' exists is irrelevant - the way our mind works it's easier to build who you are than tear it down (because even when you tear it down, there is still a whole city structure left behind)...and purposeful building to me is more useful than purposeful 'nothingness' - and you can build 'empty' spaces into cities. That may come across as nonsense - I'm not sure if it makes sense from another's perspective.

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@Frank Apisa,

There was nothing hypocritical in your post Frank.

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@vikorr,

If you want unconditioned happiness and the ability to show all others who wish for it how to also realize something they already have but ignore it then you can't have grief... you have to give it up... you can't have both. On the way you can have very temporary grief and then the reappearance of unconditioned happiness soon after but eventually the ability to feel grief will be lost.

What one will have (as I've said a few times now) is loving kindness and compassion along with empathy, also wisdom that comes from resting in unconditioned reality. This wish to free all from suffering without exception is not inhumane it is the height of humanness.

If that's not for you and you want grief etc. and don't want unconditioned happiness... don't look at Buddhism... if you do... then ok... it doesn't matter to me as I believe we all have plenty of time... there is no rush... but there is all the suffering that unenlightened people have to suffer.

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As a matter of interest, are the Buddhist monks who burn themselves and do street protests against their governments happy and enlightened?

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@Romeo Fabulini,

You've mentioned this a few times now... so I will reply... this once:

No... I'd say they are confused about what the Buddha taught... a very human quality.. in this case an extreme one... and they in my opinion are very confused.

Christ was crucified but innocent (he let himself be crucified if the story is historically correct) in a sense it could be seen as like those who set themselves on fire.

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@igm,

Hmmm.

So self-sacrifice, giving of yourself to save others, isn't part of being enlightened? That would be a difference between Christianity and Buddhism.

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I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

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