I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

Maxdancona replied- "My negative feelings are toward religious superiority. When Christians write posts about the superiority of their religion over all others.."
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Well Christianity is fronted by the Son of God himself so i'd say that makes it a little bit superior.. Wink

Likewise, if any religion can come up with anything superior to this I'd like to know which one-
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)

As i said before, Buddha was simply a human being who made attempts to get at the truth 600 years before Jesus, but the fact remains he was just a human giving us his best guesses and hunches.
Interestingly he was probably familiar with the ancient Jewish scriptures foretelling the coming of a Messiah and hoped he'd be around to meet him.
Perhaps Jesus was referring to Buddha and others when he said to his disciples-
"Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them" (Matt 13:17)

I wonder what Buddha would say to his followers today, "Follow me" or "Follow Jesus"?

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

It's all about what the Buddha taught.. not about how some people can't understand or don't want to understand what the Buddha taught...

... or temporarily lose their way... we all do that... before enlightenment is attained.

Or is it about what Jesus taught.. not about how some people can't understand or don't want to understand what Jesus taught... or is it about Mohammed...?

You still have failed to give any objective evidence that Buddha's teachings are superior to Jesus' teachings or Mohammed's teachings. You assert that it is true, and you give the standard religious apologetics. You haven't said anything about Buddha's teachings that a follower of any religion wouldn't say about their religious figure of choice.

There are so many religions that claim to be the way to enlightenment....

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@Romeo Fabulini,

The Buddha would probably say, Open your eyes [metaphorically speaking] and follow yourself.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

Please, ask me about the Buddha's teachings and try to avoid other questions which are not relevant to this thread, as explained in the OP.

This thread has be hijacked by Frank mainly and Max, even though they know next to nothing about Buddhism and certainly don't want to know anything about it... they just want to vent their rhetoric to get attention... without referencing those teachings at all... somewhat like children when they are attention seeking.

Once again, I am going to use the word “nonsense.”

I have asked questions…questions which you have either avoided…or answered with, “I cannot answer that.”

You are essentially suggesting that if one were to accept the teachings of the Buddha…eventually one would discover the value of the teachings.

Well, igm, if one were to accept the teachings of Jesus…eventually one would discover the value of the teachings of Jesus.

Probably the same thing would go for Zeus, Wodin, or Osiris.

I am not hijacking this thread…I am attempting to get answers to questions…some of which make you so uncomfortable that you resort to that avoidance or “I cannot answer that” tactic.

HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT DELUDING YOURSELF ABOUT THE THINGS YOU ASSERT YOU KNOW ABOUT REALITY BECAUSE OF YOUR BUDDHISM?

If the Buddha were here, I would be asking him the same question…and you, in effect, should be asking it of him: How, Mr. Buddha, do you know you are not deluding yourself when you claim there is no self…no soul?

If you have not attained “enlightenment”, igm, HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT “ENLIGHTENMENT” IS NOT JUST A DELUSION?

And if you HAVE attained “enlightenment”…HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT “ENLIGHTENMENT” IS NOT JUST A DELUSION?

Respectfully as possible, igm, no hijacking going on here. Just questions…questions waiting for answers.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You still have failed to give any objective evidence that Buddha's teachings are superior to Jesus' teachings or Mohammed's teachings.

Why would I want to? You are the one obsessed with the notion of superiority, Max... you show it in almost every post you make... I feel sorry for you... you just want harm... not help.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

You still have failed to give any objective evidence that Buddha's teachings are superior to Jesus' teachings or Mohammed's teachings.

Why would I want to? You are the one obsessed with the notion of superiority, Max... you show it in almost every post you make... I feel sorry for you... you just want harm... not help.

Glad you were able to comment on what Max was saying, igm.

How about answering the questions I asked about the Buddha…and about you? The ones that wonder how you know he was not deluded…and that you are not deluded in what you are doing with his possible delusions.

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@Frank Apisa,

Do you really guess that I or anyone else could tell you to your satisfaction that I am not deluded.. it is the equivalent of asking if my perception of the color blue is the same as your perception of it... it is impossible... if you want to know if the Buddha revealed a way to understand the true nature of reality you have to follow his explanation of how you can do that... is that so difficult to understand?

The Buddha said everything is impermanent... now you have to go away and check using your own common sense and test if that is correct. When you are satisfied that everything is impermanent, you move on to the next teaching and so on. Eventually you meditate and attain Buddhist Enlightenment... again... is that difficult to understand... does that make all of Buddhism deluded because one cannot just say in a couple of sentences what the true nature of reality is and have the other person know one is correct?

If one ties seven knots in a rope one cannot undo the first one without untying the other six first. You want the answer that delivers Buddhist Enlightenment without understanding the causes that lead to that realization. Why do you think that is possible?

I'd say it is because you don't want to know anything about Buddhism you just want to harm not help... in this respect.

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JLNobody said- "The Buddha would probably say, Open your eyes [metaphorically speaking] and follow yourself"
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And THERE'S the fundamental flaw of Buddhism, it wants us to look inside our own imperfect selves for The Truth!
Buddha quotes- "No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path.
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.
The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart.
Sepend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed.
Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others."

So as Buddhism teaches that we don't need anybody, that must also mean we don't need Buddha either.. Wink

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It's ironic that one asks to help others to understand what the Buddha taught and it only attracts posters (up to now p.24) who want to harm Buddhism or who have a negative curiosity about it... or who are already Buddhists (thank goodness for the last group).

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@igm,

igm wrote:

Do you really guess that I or anyone else could tell you to your satisfaction that I am not deluded..

Absolutely not. I even told you that earlier...when I suggested that the answer had to be "NO."

If you KNOW you are being deluded...you are not being deluded.

As you said...it is impossible to know.

SO...the Buddha may have been deluded!

Quote:

...it is the equivalent of asking if my perception of the color blue is the same as your perception of it... it is impossible... if you want to know if the Buddha revealed a way to understand the true nature of reality you have to follow his explanation of how you can do that... is that so difficult to understand?

Nope...what is "difficult to understand" is how an apparently intelligent individual such as you cannot see the fallacy involved there. If you immerse yourself into a belief system...you can DELUDE youself into supposing it is revealing of truths...whether it is or not.

Quote:

The Buddha said everything is impermanent... now you have to go away and check using your own common sense and test if that is correct.

How do you suppose you can do that...and be certain you are not deluding yourself, igm.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time...I am trying to get you to look at this thing with an open mind.

Quote:

When you are satisfied that everything is impermanent, you move on to the next teaching and so on.

The day you determine that you have discovered that "everything is impermanent" is the day you can be damn sure you have deluded yourself. How on Earth can you determine that?

Explain how ANYONE can determine that?

It would be like asking someone to determine with certainty if there are any life forms on any of the planets circling the the stars that make up the constellation Orion.

It cannot be done with certainty...because of the "possible delusion" intercession.

Quote:

Eventually you meditate and attain Buddhist Enlightenment... again... is that difficult to understand... does that make all of Buddhism deluded because one cannot just say in a couple of sentences what the true nature of reality is and have the other person know one is correct?

Yes...you can talk yourself into accepting guesses as truths...just as every religion expects of its adherents.

Quote:

If one ties seven knots in a rope one cannot undo the first one without untying the other six first. You want the answer that delivers Buddhist Enlightenment without understanding the causes that lead to that realization. Why do you think that is possible?

Take this up with someone who cares about knots in ropes.

Quote:

I'd say it is because you don't want to know anything about Buddhism you just want to harm not help... in this respect.

I am asking questions...and hoping you will arrive at the skepticism I have as a result of your having to respond to them. Because that is exactly where you should be arriving, igm.

I do not mean to harm any more than you do. You apparently want to share what you consider truths...and that is what I want to share.

But my defense of my truths (that I do not know) seem to be a lot stronger than the "truths" you are offering.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

It's ironic that one asks to help others to understand what the Buddha taught and it only attracts posters (up to now p.24) who want to harm Buddhism or who have a negative curiosity about it... or who are already Buddhists (thank goodness for the last group).

I cannot understand why you consider the direction this thread has taken as "ironic."

If given the chance to bet on the outcome of your thread before you posted it...I would have bet big bucks it would go exactly the way it has gone.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

It's ironic that one asks to help others to understand what the Buddha taught and it only attracts posters (up to now p.24) who want to harm Buddhism or who have a negative curiosity about it... or who are already Buddhists (thank goodness for the last group).

It is neither ironic, nor surprising.

You started a thread to "to help others understand" your religion and you got pushback. This happens anytime comes on trying to spread their religion. I don't know why you would expect it to be any different with Buddhism.

Take a look at these threads "helping others to understand" Christianity and Islam.

http://able2know.org/topic/216546-1
http://able2know.org/topic/15015-1

Any religious proponent in a public space is going to find believers, converts and skeptics-- and there will always be more skeptics than converts. If you are going to promote your religion in public, you are going to have to accept that reality.

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@Frank Apisa,

I'm not deluded because I have an insight into the true nature of reality. You cannot know that... it is impossible for you to know my partial realization. That is why Buddhism works for me. I know. Respect that and leave your negative comments which are always the same to 'I guess you are wrong igm but I have no evidence for that.' or 'You may understand something of the true nature of reality igm, I don't know.'

.... but just stop repeating yourself... You can't know what I know just as I can't know what you do... leave it there.

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

I'm not deluded because I have an insight into the true nature of reality.

Lol

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Vikorr...I have read this list through completely...and there is not one word that I find in any way hypocritical.

Pick out the one instance you think most proves your point...and I will discuss it with you for as long as it takes to resolve it.

There is absolutely no hypocrisy in any of this.

I do not know.

I suspect others do not know.

Frank... the post you are responding to was a reply to your previous post to, not a post on your hypocrisy...you asked that I directly quote your position that you had broken (rather than provide quotes of hypocrisy), so they are quotes of your position.....

Quote:

When someone suggests they do know (or have a sense of it)...I ask for specifics.

What in the name of REALITY is it in all of that...that you see as hypocrisy?

.....where you break your own value/position over and over has already been directly quoted - where each time, I said you were being hypocritical.

There's no need to post those again.

Frank Apisa wrote:

In your world, am I not allowed to discuss from my perspective.

vikorr wrote:

Nor is Franks value of 'I do not know the true nature of reality' a bad value - there is much merit to such a stance. The issue is that it has been taken to the extreme (which I find to be unworkable, but that's a different issue)...and therefore because it is he that is taking it to the extreme, and demanding the same of others - he should acknowledge where he is making many guesses presented as knowledge...about reality (which encompasses everything, including peoples feelings, logic, what an interpretation of another persons writing means, etc)...but he doesn't. Hence the hypocritical comments.

Hypocrisy isn't a pleasent accusation, but it's the most accurate where you demand a value of others that you yourself break.

Seriously Frank...this post of yours was completely unnecessary - every thing in it had already been answered.

You claim not to know reality and not making guesses (see quotes of your position - that's what they were for), but you do a good job at guessing constantly.

2 Replies

@vikorr,

Let me put it this way Frank :

- you swear black and blue that you do not know the true nature of reality
- you criticise others for taking guesses
- you uphold your 'not taking guesses' as a virtue of yours

...then you havefrequently take guesses about others (see each post where I said 'that was hypocritical)

Do you not see the hypocrisy of such a stance vs such behaviour?

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In relation to not knowing the true nature of reality...a true belief in this would result in a different use of language to what you employ (something I've previously provided an example of)

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
Vikorr...I have read this list through completely...and there is not one word that I find in any way hypocritical.

Pick out the one instance you think most proves your point...and I will discuss it with you for as long as it takes to resolve it.

There is absolutely no hypocrisy in any of this.

I do not know.

I suspect others do not know.

Frank... the post you are responding to was a reply to your previous post to, not a post on your hypocrisy...you asked that I directly quote your position that you had broken (rather than provide quotes of hypocrisy), so they are quotes of your position.....

Quote:
When someone suggests they do know (or have a sense of it)...I ask for specifics.

What in the name of REALITY is it in all of that...that you see as hypocrisy?

.....where you break your own value/position over and over has already been directly quoted - where each time, I said you were being hypocritical.

There's no need to post those again.

Frank Apisa wrote:
In your world, am I not allowed to discuss from my perspective.
vikorr wrote:
Nor is Franks value of 'I do not know the true nature of reality' a bad value - there is much merit to such a stance. The issue is that it has been taken to the extreme (which I find to be unworkable, but that's a different issue)...and therefore because it is he that is taking it to the extreme, and demanding the same of others - he should acknowledge where he is making many guesses presented as knowledge...about reality (which encompasses everything, including peoples feelings, logic, what an interpretation of another persons writing means, etc)...but he doesn't. Hence the hypocritical comments.

Hypocrisy isn't a pleasent accusation, but it's the most accurate where you demand a value of others that you yourself break.
Seriously Frank...this post of yours was completely unnecessary - every thing in it had already been answered.

You claim not to know reality and not making guesses (see quotes of your position - that's what they were for), but you do a good job at guessing constantly.

Vikorr, I make guesses all the time...just like other people. When I make a guess...I call it a guess. Some people call their guesses "beliefs"...apparently to give them credibility they wouldn't otherwise have.

There are somethings I will not guess about, because I realize I do not have enough information upon which to base a meaningful guess.

"The true natue of the REALITY of existence" is one of those items.

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Let me put it this way Frank :

- you swear black and blue that you do not know the true nature of reality
- you criticise others for taking guesses

I defy you to find any post of mine that criticizes anyone for making any kind of guess.

You will never find one...so do not even bother to look.

I do criticize the practice of making guesses...and calling them "beliefs"...or making guesses...and pretending they are knowledge.

Quote:

- you uphold your 'not taking guesses' as a virtue of yours

Where do you get this from? I do not guess on items where I think I do not have enough information to make an informed guess. I have never talked about this as a virtue.

Quote:

...then you havefrequently take guesses about others (see each post where I said 'that was hypocritical)

Do you not see the hypocrisy of such a stance vs such behaviour?

NO I DO NOT, BECAUSE I AM NOT DOING WHAT YOU ARE CHARACTERIZING ME AS DOING.

Try to get that, Vikorr. It will make you wiser.

Quote:

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In relation to not knowing the true nature of reality...a true belief in this would result in a different use of language to what you employ (something I've previously provided an example of)

Ahhh...now we have a true belief!!!

If one makes a guess, Vikorr...and it happens to prove correct...it is correct whatever the language used to make the guess.

I do not care what kind of language you use to tell me about what you know about the true nature of REALITY.

DO YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE TRUE NATURE OF THE REALITY OF EXISTENCE...other than the tautology "What IS...IS?"

Tell me what you know...and how you know it...and how you know you are not deluding yourself?

(That is a question.)

If you do not know anything about the true nature of the REALITY of existence...we are in the same boat.

1 Reply

Felicitations Igm, thank you for the opportunity to seek your wisdom; on my mind it weighs heavily so it does; so who do you think would win in a Death Match battle between Gautama Buddha and Darth Vader and would the victor reach Sammasambuddho?

With a thousand blessings by thy fortune crowned.

1 Reply

@Tryagain,

Tryagain... Tryagain...

0 Replies

I am a Buddhist and if anyone wants to question my beliefs then they are welcome to do so...

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