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The Best Response To Richard Clarke Would Have Been...

 
 
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2004 09:52 pm
Clarke just hasn't convinced me that 9/11 was Bush's fault.

I think much of what Clarke says is true. For example, the counter-productive nature of the war in Iraq. However, I am skeptical about whether or not Bush's inability to prevent 9/11 is evidence of gross negligence.

Bush is an utterly incompetant moron - of this I am sure. I am not sure, however, whether failing to prevent 9/11 constitutes gross negligence. I am not sure that any other president would have done otherwise.

In my opinion, Bush's inability to prevent 9/11 is nowhere near as damning as his complete mishandling of the War on Terror after 9/11.

The irony, of course, is that Bush and his handlers are only adding fuel to the bonfire with thier assbackwards attempts at discrediting Clarke, the fiasco over Condi testifying, thier stonewalling, thier outright lies, etc.

If I was the in control of the White House, this is how I would handle the Clarke problem:

My fellow Americans, yadda yadda yadda... allegations have been made recently that the government did not do as much as it could have to protect America from the attack on the World Trade Center on September 11th, 2001. These allegations are absolutely correct. While my administration did plenty to watch out for Al Qaeda, and was cognizant and active in watching out for the threat they posed, we also spent a lot of time and resources on anti-ballistic missile treaties, concerns about Iraqi weapons programs, etc. Had we done anything less, we would have been remiss - until 9/11 it was perfectly reasonable to assume the next threat to our nation would come along those lines. We were wrong - everyone was wrong; we were unprepared for the use of box-cutters to transform our airliners into weapons of mass destruction.

Since the attacks, we've done X,Y, and Z to address the threat posed by Al Qaeda. We've busted such and such terror cells, captured or killed this many Al Qaeda functionaries, and done a bunch of other stuff too. It's unrealistic to have expected us to have taken those actions before 9/11 - we didn't think Al Qaeda was as much of a threat or the type of threat they turned out to be. I'm sorry; we're doing our best now, and you shouldn't expect anything better, as I'm not a fucking psychic, and neither are you.


Tell me I am wrong, and I will will perform brain surgury on you with a shoe horn.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 906 • Replies: 10
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2004 10:10 pm
You're wrong.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2004 10:17 pm
*lobotomy*
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 01:34 am
Interesting - we were talking yesterday about how hard it seems for many politicians to feel able to just admit a fault, or that something sucks, or that a problem is intractable, or that something was pretty much unpredictable. I suppose it comes from the feeling that to do so will prompt a career-destroying feeding frenzy?

I have one polly friend who does it quite readily - I wish it would become more possible.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 03:14 am
I suppose when you start with flawed assumptions, you can't arrive at an accurate answer. For example:
IronLionZion wrote:
However, I am skeptical about whether or not Bush's inability to prevent 9/11 is evidence of gross negligence.

The President could not have prevented the September 11 attacks all by himself. So there could be no negligence assumed on his part for the attacks.

IronLionZion wrote:
Bush is an utterly incompetant moron - of this I am sure.

Our President has a Bachelor's degree from Yale and a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School. Not a moron.

IronLionZion wrote:
The irony, of course, is that Bush and his handlers are only adding fuel to the bonfire with thier assbackwards attempts at discrediting Clarke...

I'm proud of him for defending his own people against this traitor Clarke. And I'm even more proud of him for not stooping to Clarke's level and resorting to personal attacks the way Clarke did. That's the mark of a true class act.

IronLionZion wrote:
...the fiasco over Condi testifying...

Again, the President defends his people. There's a long precedent for Executive Branch staff not testifying this way before the Legislative Branch. When Ms. Rice testifies, it will be an event never seen in the history of this country, IIRC. It must have been quite a decision, and it would be interesting to see how they arrived at it.

IronLionZion wrote:
...thier stonewalling...

Not sure what this is about.

IronLionZion wrote:
...thier outright lies...

Same comment as above.

So that's why you were wrong...IMHO Wink
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 05:00 am
The President is in charge or is he?
"cognizant" Come on ILZ Shrub wouldn't use a word like that.

I agree that he is not a moron. He is of average IQ, simple minded and shallow.

There is evidence that he should have known that Al Q. was going to use planes as missles and they were coming soon.
I do think that there is evidence of negligence on the Pres. part and his Vulcans before and after 911. I don't think the 911 Commission will report that because it's a white wash.

Bushco are a miserable failure. Republicans like to brag about this war Pres.; that he has won two wars. That's not true. No war have been won.

NY Times: The Mystery Deepens


<http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/03/opinion/03SAT1.html >

Quote:
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 11:09 am
I assert that the president's continued attempts to obstruct the work of the 9/11 commission has made America less safe. Just look at this record:

** Bush initially opposed creating the commission at all, and then gave in to the political pressure.

** Bush then appointed Henry Kissinger -- who made a career out of covering up the truth -- to head the commission. Kissinger was forced to resign because of possible conflicts of interest. Business interests.

** Bush delayed giving the commission access to presidential daily briefs, eventually allowing the commission to take a quick look at the documents and take White House-approved notes in a controlled facility. Chairman Kean was refused to even make a copy of the documents.

** Bush opposed giving the commission an extension to finish its work after White House delays made the commission's original deadline impossible to meet. Again, he was compelled to concede and give the commission more time.

** Bush didn't want to allow National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice to testify publicly under oath, again giving in only after political pressure (from Republicans on the Commission like John Lehman, no less) forced him to relent.

** Bush has struggled furiously to limit his own time in front of the commission, beginning with an offer of a meeting only one hour long with only two commissioners. Bush has now agreed to meet with the whole commission, but only if Vice President Cheney is with him.

** Bush has handed over only 25 percent of the 11,000 pages of documents that show President Clinton's strong emphasis on fighting terrorism.

This record is not just shameful, but nearly treasonous itself.

Richrd Clarke is to be praised for risking himself in this onslaught of coordinated Republican smear.

'Traitor', says Tarantulas.

George Bush is more traitor than he.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 11:21 am
Pdiddie-Excellent summation, beautifully written.

Tarantulas-Continue your criticism. I for one am listening, and trying to draw my own conclusion.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 11:30 am
Re: The President is in charge or is he?
pistoff wrote:
There is evidence that he should have known that Al Q. was going to use planes as missles and they were coming soon.
I do think that there is evidence of negligence on the Pres. part and his Vulcans before and after 911. I don't think the 911 Commission will report that because it's a white wash.

I would like to see this evidence, for both allegations.

As for the NY Times article, it's nothing but an editorial. It has no byline so it could have been written by anyone. I was looking for the quotes in Scott McClellan's press briefings, and it looks like the writer has mangled what Scott said. The briefing on Thursday is here, but the words the writer is quoting may be here but are most probably here. Scott used the phrase "all the information they need" several times, mostly saying that the President wanted to keep the commission supplied with everything so they could do their job. Here's an example of such a quote:

Quote:
We have worked closely and cooperatively with the commission from the very beginning to make sure they have all the information they need to do their job. We have provided the commission unprecedented access to information, including our most sensitive national security documents. The commission has itself stated that we have provided access to everything that they have requested.

Maybe the writer heard Scott say what he said in some other venue, but I believe he just misheard a statement and placed it in the wrong context.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 12:29 pm
I'll try to address some of these...

PDiddie wrote:
Bush delayed giving the commission access to presidential daily briefs, eventually allowing the commission to take a quick look at the documents and take White House-approved notes in a controlled facility. Chairman Kean was refused to even make a copy of the documents.

Have you ever worked with classified or sensitive information? I have, both in the military and in civilian life. You have to protect it, to make sure unauthorized people don't get their hands on it. You can't leave it around unguarded where any passerby could read it. And you certainly don't publish it on the Internet. Presumably the commission's final report will be available to the general public. For that reason, the administration is right to check what information is being given to the commission, and to refuse to allow the commission to make copies of the confidential/sensitive raw data. As far as the delay, here's what the press secretary said about that:

Quote:
MR. McCLELLAN: Well, wait a second. First of all -- let me -- what I was hitting on. We have provided the commission with more than 2.3 million pages of documents, more than 100 briefings -- including at the head of agency level, more than 780 interviews and meetings with administration officials, more than 900 audio tapes of meetings and other materials, more than 60 compact disk of radar, flight and other information. As the letter points out, we have provided more than 20 officials from the executive office of the President to meet with the commission in private.

This is all about making sure that the commission has all the information they need to do their job. And that's what we have done from the beginning. The commission has stated publicly that we have provided access to everything that they have requested.

Q That's after months of delay.

MR. McCLELLAN: No, wrong, wrong. No, the commission has said from very early on that we have provided access to everything that they have requested. Obviously there is always discussion when you're talking about sensitive national security documents. There's always going to be discussion about how that information is provided to the commission. But they have had access to every single thing --

Q There hasn't been a delay, there hasn't been a delay in providing this access?

MR. McCLELLAN: We have worked very closely and cooperatively with the commission to make sure that they can complete their work in a timely manner. And the commission chairman and vice-chairman have repeatedly stated -- and in fact, in their statement they released today stated that we have provided unprecedented cooperation with a congressionally mandated commission.

PDiddie wrote:
Bush didn't want to allow National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice to testify publicly under oath, again giving in only after political pressure (from Republicans on the Commission like John Lehman, no less) forced him to relent.

Here's what was said about that issue in a press briefing:

Quote:
Q Scott why did the -- why did the President reverse himself on Dr. Rice's testimony? It seemed so important last week that she not testify publicly under oath, and now all of a sudden there's this reversal.

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, a couple of things. Let me back up for a second. We have worked closely and cooperatively with the commission from the very beginning to make sure they have all the information they need to do their job. We have provided the commission unprecedented access to information, including our most sensitive national security documents. The commission has itself stated that we have provided access to everything that they have requested.

Now I think a couple of things here. We have provided -- we have been provided written assurance from the commission and from -- and we have been provided assurance from congressional leaders that this testimony by Dr. Rice will in no way set a precedent; they will continue to uphold an important principle, which is the separation of powers issue.

But I think also, we have to keep in mind that in recent days and weeks there has tended to be more focus on the process, rather than the substance. And the President believes it's important for the focus to be on the substance. The work of the 9/11 Commission is very important. And we want to continue to do everything we can to make sure that they have all the information they need to do their job. And I would remind you that -- what I've said previously. It's important that if the commission has additional recommendations -- beyond everything that we're already doing since September 11th -- to prevent another attack from happening, that we have those recommendations as soon as possible.

I don't really understand the issue of separation of powers as it relates to public testimony by an administration official. I would like to see a better explanation of it. But that was about all I could find.

PDiddie wrote:
Bush has struggled furiously to limit his own time in front of the commission, beginning with an offer of a meeting only one hour long with only two commissioners. Bush has now agreed to meet with the whole commission, but only if Vice President Cheney is with him.

I'm not sure there's a good answer for this one. I did find some responses in this press briefing:

Quote:
MR. McCLELLAN: You're talking about a sitting President and Vice President of the United States, as well. And this is -- this is a good way to help them get the information they need to do their job. And they -- and the commission, I might point out, unanimously welcomed the decision.

Quote:
Q If they have different recollections, wouldn't it be more helpful to the commission to hear from them separately?

MR. McCLELLAN: I don't think this is a game of "gotcha." This is about making sure that they have the information they need to do their job. And that's the spirit in which we're working. They already have much of the information they need. This is a way for them to sit down with the President and Vice President and learn additional insights into how they go about piecing all this information together. And this is a good way to do it.

I think the question was dodged and not really answered, but I don't think it's something of great importance. Some people do, but I don't.

PDiddie wrote:
Richrd Clarke is to be praised for risking himself in this onslaught of coordinated Republican smear.

'Traitor', says Tarantulas.

And "traitor" I will continue to say. As I stated in another thread, if Richard Clarke's allegations are true, they will be corroborated by other administration officials. So far I haven't seen other people stepping forward saying "Yes, he's right, I saw the same thing from a different angle, the President didn't care about Al Qaeda until after 9/11," etc. Instead, here's one guy trying to sell his book, coming out with unproven statements that no one else agrees with. Some people have characterized him as a "whistleblower," but I think we all know what he really is. He's a disgruntled former employee. When he didn't get the number two job he wanted in the new Homeland Security department, he resigned and started writing his book. And the book has been released at a time when it can do the most damage to his former employer. What Clarke forgot is that as a government employee, many of his previous statements (that provide evidence that he's making up the allegations in his book) are available and can be brought out to show what a liar he is. And I hope his previous statements do come back to haunt him, and are made part of the 9/11 report, so there's no question about the actions taken by this administration in response to terrorism.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 04:58 pm
Others have spoken out
Others have said the same thing that Clarke has said but even if 10 people that work for Bushco came out and backed up Clarke the Neocons would repeat their smear tactics. Facts mean nothing to these people. No matter what evidence emerges they lie and spin regarding any evidence. It is pointless for me to waste my time and energy here to post the facts. They will be countered with the same spin as the Spin Doc Press spinner spins.
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