Existence of Everything.

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

But keep in mind that if what we call the physical universe is an illusion...THAT IS THE REALITY.

Reality is how things are and not how they are imagined to be or may appear to be.

The definition of an Illusion is that it distorts reality.

Reality is not an illusion because an illusion is a distortion of reality; whereas reality is how things are in the absence of illusions.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

But keep in mind that if what we call the physical universe is an illusion...THAT IS THE REALITY.

Reality is how things are and not how they are imagined to be or may appear to be.

The definition of an Illusion is that it distorts reality.

Reality is not an illusion because an illusion is a distortion of reality; whereas reality is how things are in the absence of illusions.

REALITY, igm, IS what IS.

If what we call the physical universe is an illusion...that is the REALITY.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

But keep in mind that if what we call the physical universe is an illusion...THAT IS THE REALITY.

Reality is how things are and not how they are imagined to be or may appear to be.

The definition of an Illusion is that it distorts reality.

Reality is not an illusion because an illusion is a distortion of reality; whereas reality is how things are in the absence of illusions.

REALITY, igm, IS what IS.

If what we call the physical universe is an illusion...that is the REALITY.

What I've said is correct given the definitions of 'reality' and 'illusion'... do you agree with me or not? If you don't you are wrong if one wants to use the definitions of, 'reality' and 'illusion', described in such places as Wikipedia for example.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

But keep in mind that if what we call the physical universe is an illusion...THAT IS THE REALITY.

Reality is how things are and not how they are imagined to be or may appear to be.

The definition of an Illusion is that it distorts reality.

Reality is not an illusion because an illusion is a distortion of reality; whereas reality is how things are in the absence of illusions.

REALITY, igm, IS what IS.

If what we call the physical universe is an illusion...that is the REALITY.

What I've said is correct given the definitions of 'reality' and 'illusion'... do you agree with me or not? If you don't you are wrong if one wants to use the definitions of, 'reality' and 'illusion', described in such places as Wikipedia for example.

Igm...if the REALITY of existence is that it is the ILLUSION of some mind or another...then that is the REALITY.

Dictionaries tell us how a word is commonly used.

Here, we are talking about the REALITY...about what actually IS.

If what we refer to as "the physical world" is just an illusion...then that is what is REAL.

It is a difficult concept and if you are not up to it, you really should leave it be.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Dictionaries tell us how a word is commonly used.

It is a difficult concept and if you are not up to it, you really should leave it be.

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

But keep in mind that if what we call the physical universe is an illusion...THAT IS THE REALITY.

Reality is how things are and not how they are imagined to be or may appear to be.

The definition of an Illusion is that it distorts reality.

Reality is not an illusion because an illusion is a distortion of reality; whereas reality is how things are in the absence of illusions.

If you want to make up the meaning of words and go against the philosophical meaning don't expect to be understood or to make any sense.

I've studied this subject, 'the nature of reality' for decades. It is not beyond me but someone who makes up the meaning of the word, 'reality' and 'illusion' and goes against their philosophical meaning is beyond me... so you are correct in that respect.

I know what you're trying to say but you're not making a very good job of it.

Fil knows that I know the point he is making... you are just along for the ride.

Explain what is incorrect about my syllogism or go post about slavery in the bible or some such thing... that topic seems to excite you.

2 Replies

@igm,

Updated above post.

0 Replies

@igm,

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Dictionaries tell us how a word is commonly used.

It is a difficult concept and if you are not up to it, you really should leave it be.

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

But keep in mind that if what we call the physical universe is an illusion...THAT IS THE REALITY.

Reality is how things are and not how they are imagined to be or may appear to be.

The definition of an Illusion is that it distorts reality.

Reality is not an illusion because an illusion is a distortion of reality; whereas reality is how things are in the absence of illusions.

If you want to make up the meaning of words and go against the philosophical meaning don't expect to be understood or to make any sense.

I've studied this subject, 'the nature of reality' for decades. It is not beyond me but someone who makes up the meaning of the word, 'reality' and 'illusion' and goes against their philosophical meaning is beyond me... so you are correct in that respect.

I know what you're trying to say but you're not making a very good job of it.

Fil knows that I know the point he is making... you are just along for the ride.

Explain what is incorrect about my syllogism or go post about slavery in the bible or some such thing... that topic seems to excite you.

Igm...if you do not understand what I am saying...then you are not nearly as versed in the subject as you want to suppose you are.

What I said stands...and I am doing a fine job of presenting what the points I was making. Your inability to comprehend and appreciate the points is of no special concern to me.

I will post where and when I choose to...and you are more than welcome to avoid what I say. As I said, apparently you are not up to the job of understanding what I have said.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I disagree.

2 Replies

@igm,

You have my sympathies !
But since Kant, Hegel and numerous others convincingly argue that we construct what we call "reality", it only makes sense to talk about "illusion" as aberrent or dysfunctional construction with respect to the praxis of living. Absolutism in this respect amounts to little more than a religious posture.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

I disagree.

I realize that...and that is fine with me.

Lots of disagreement on this forum...as in almost all Internet forums...and in life.

0 Replies

@fresco,

Reality is ineffable... experienced as the result of a systematic thorough negation of all characteristics associated with it... which leads to transcendent insight... which is none other than the union of calm abiding and insight meditation.

1 Reply

@igm,

I suggest what you refer to is "transcendent reality" ....the vantage point from which we can understand the dynamic constructivism which constitutes "everyday reality". It is ineffable by virtue of the fact that vocalization is a construction. (I refer you to my comments above about the meditational "illusory me" and the possible shedding of "personal goals" in the light of a changed praxis of living).

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

I suggest what you refer to is "transcendent reality" ....the vantage point from which we can understand the dynamic constructivism which constitutes "everyday reality". It is ineffable by virtue of the fact that vocalization is a construction. (I refer you to my comments above about the meditational "illusory me" and the possible shedding of "personal goals" in the light of a changed praxis of living).

Intuitively I feel we are on the same page... and praxis is the perfect word... as is the metaphor of... writing on water... it hints at reality's profound impermanence.

0 Replies

I'll have to go with Frank on this latest exchange.
If, by some celestial perversion, everything is an illusion.
Then, sadly, that is our reality.

I don't believe everything is an illusion, BTW. Don't send the loony boys yet.

2 Replies

@neologist,

A religious stance from you is understandable.
The absolutist expression "everything could be an illusion" is either a hypothetical " God's eye view" or it is functionally meaningless (since humans can never know). You can of course attempt to extrapolate from a meditator's quiescent "transcendent reality" to a pantheistic one in which the meditator is "part of an omniscient God" or "a manifestation of an omniscient God", but even with that sleight of hand, human words, like "everything" and "illusion", become meaningless within the concomitant soup of ineffability .

1 Reply

@fresco,

Yeah, but I don't believe everything could be an illusion.
I believe what is, is.
True, I generally operate from the point of view of naïve realism. Don't all of us?
The concomitant soup of ineffability is, in itself, a meaningless expression.

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Yeah, but I don't believe everything could be an illusion.

Interesting guess. Thank you for sharing it.

Quote:

I believe what is, is.

What IS...definitely IS.

Quote:

True, I generally operate from the point of view of naïve realism. Don't all of us?
The concomitant soup of ineffability is, in itself, a meaningless expression.

Not to Fresco.

Anyway, there is no way I can KNOW for certain that everything I sense is NOT an illusion occurring in the thing I consider my mind.

Perhaps "the thing I consider my mind" is the only thing that exists…and everyone and everything I perceive to be the physical world IS just an illusion in "the thing I consider my mind."

If it is NOT an illusion…you have that same problem. So does everyone else.

What a bitch!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . .
Anyway, there is no way I can KNOW for certain that everything I sense is NOT an illusion occurring in the thing I consider my mind.

Perhaps "the thing I consider my mind" is the only thing that exists…and everyone and everything I perceive to be the physical world IS just an illusion in "the thing I consider my mind."

If it is NOT an illusion…you have that same problem. So does everyone else.

What a bitch!

Yeah, but why do you bother to unzip yer pants when you have to take a leak?

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . .
Anyway, there is no way I can KNOW for certain that everything I sense is NOT an illusion occurring in the thing I consider my mind.

Perhaps "the thing I consider my mind" is the only thing that exists…and everyone and everything I perceive to be the physical world IS just an illusion in "the thing I consider my mind."

If it is NOT an illusion…you have that same problem. So does everyone else.

What a bitch!
Yeah, but why do you bother to unzip yer pants when you have to take a leak?

Because like everyone else, I operate from a view point of naive realism...and even the illusion of piss-wet pants is uncomfortable. ASIDE: During the summer months when I wear shorts, I do not unzip my pants when I take a leak. (My main worry is that my thing does not hang out after I am done.)

1 Reply

@neologist,

You have contradicted yourself by stating that "everything is an illusion - and that is our reality." Your ability to communicate "is not an illusion" by its very definition.

1 Reply

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