Reality - thing or phenomenon?

Yeah...you said that yesterday...and once before earlier.

There is no contradiction...so it is your best course of action.

I hope this time you stick with it.

If he 'knows,' he has belief - right or wrong.

is an oxymoron. If it's objective, how is it that you have opinions that are your's alone at the time you 'speak' or post it?

Your thinking ability is subjective.

In addition to that, Frank doesn't have belief but only guesses. His guesses are subjective. His belief is a big question mark in and of itself.

ci just asked you: "If he 'knows,' he has belief - right or wrong. "

Apparently his brain is programmed to change "know" or "guess" or "suppose" into...believe.

Nothing you can do about that!

ci also said:



Once again, his brain obviously is not able to understand anything except in terms of the word "belief."

I wonder if there is a medical term for this condition.

ci...if you want to continue the discussion, you can direct your comments to me.

Why? You have difficulty with elementary English. I'll post to whom I please.

I must also say that what I have expressed on this thread are my subjective beliefs and opinions - based on what I have read. It's also part of my "reality" that I'm discussing this issue with people on this thread.

Of course you will. It was just an invitation.

And I do not have difficulty with elementary English. I think anyone reading my posts realizes that.

I asked for an explanation...you refused...I attempted to make the explanation easier for you to make. Then you ran away....and now you are going to the insults you so regularly engage in.

I think that might be the problem, ci. You indulge in conversation after conversation...discussion after discussion...that deteriorate into "You are stupid"..."No...you are stupid" kinds of nonsense.

That is not happening here.

Your logic on this matter is defective. I'd love to explain it in a way that you could understand, but so far...no luck. But I never give up.

Fine. And if there actually is a "my reality" that is somehow divorced from the REALITY...then great. But that is one guess out of an almost infinite number of other possibilities...and if it is wrong...you are just kidding yourself.

ME: I do not know what the REALITY is...but I do know that whatever it IS...IT IS. That makes it objective...which is what I have been saying right along. Even if your "my reality" is correct...that would make the REALITY that...and that would be the objective REALITY.

Seriously, how many time may one repeat a tautology before it starts to become a tiny bit tiresome? 1000 times? 2000 times?

I see the moon,
the moon sees me.
If I'm not around,
No moon I'll see.

No word will ring
with meaning to me.
No voice will sing
"There is a me."

Will the moon be there
if we go away?
Surely I won't care.
That's all I can say.


If the moon is no longer observed by anyone then what is the moon?:

It's not an image or a series of images in time. Images are only something to observers.
It's not a thing that can be touched, tasted, smelt, heard, etc... Sensations are only something to observers.
It's not a mass of particles. Particle, mass, position, velocity, acceleration, etc are concepts made up by observers and are only meaningful to observers.
It's not an object. An object is a concept made up by observers and is only meaningful to observers.

Saying all that, I still have to think there is a reality that exists outside of my experience.:

I had to come from somewhere.
Things consistently appear to me as phenomena like the moon.
I think the moon gives that experience to me, I did not create it.

Perhaps to have a useful, meaningful word "reality" requires both parts: subjective and objective reality.

You will be glad to know that the massive celestial object called the moon does not vanish into ether when it is not visible from earth anymore, i.e. when in an angular position close to the sun (new moon). We've known that for a long time, because once in a while the new moon's position coincides with the sun's and the moon then eclipses the sun...

In the context of the post, "no longer observed by anyone" is referring to no longer observing because observers do not exist.

Also there are the tides and werewolves.

An excellent synopsis of our intellectual requirement to consider inner and outer states as co-aspects of "reality". Such a requirement is currently the focus of second generation cognitive scientists. However, I doubt whether the word "reality" ,and its lay asoociates "subjectivity" and "objectivity", have any functional import at that level since like "time" and "causality", they have been left behind on the plains of everyday social transactions, rather than carried as dead weight to the loftier shifting frontiers of "perceptual investigation".

I do not know. But if the person to whom it is being addressed simply does not get it...I guess the number can be great.

To muse...

The Universe appears differently to each and every sentient being because of how they view reality. What appears is experienced differently because of that... and has psychological implications which can make for a happy life or an unhappy life and anywhere in between.

There are Universes for those that reason; others for those that rely on instruments that measure. Yet others created by the results of pure math. Universes for those with faith and those without it. Universes for the pessimistic and Universes for the optimistic. Others for the brave and still others for the cruel. They are all valid but some are psychologically happier places to be and some are hellish.

It's like the many-worlds QM interpretation. There are as many Universes as there are sentient beings. Those that view a similar Universe can indirectly communicate and interact but they don't view the same Universe as they are infinite and no two are identical.

For those that measure the Universe then it appears as relatively measurable but the drawback is a Universe which leads to a psychological state that sees the individual as insignificant within the vastness of that measurable place it finds itself in.. just a tiny insignificant speck.

For those with faith and those with reason, their Universes have doubt and confusion as both don't stand up to close scrutiny.

No Universes are permanent as sentient beings constantly change their views. Sentient beings eventually experience them all in an endless cycle, until...

The letting go of all world-views... leads to psychological perfection... and the notion of 'Universe' is transcended.

End of muse.

Let's not forget the rats. And the aliens...

Does the moon also wonder if earth will disappear once she's not around anymore to lift her tides?

Naive irrealists are funny people.

And if the person never gets it, you will keep on asserting tautologies until death do you part? Or will you at some point conclude that you may agree to disagree? Or you could create a thread to discuss the issue.

I already have created several threads to discuss these issues.

Seems to me, Olivier, that if you do not like reading what I write...you could simply avoid reading what I write...rather than suggesting that I stop writing it.

In any case, you go over the same material yourself...because that is the way this forum works. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable in a different one.

Oh please, write tautologies all your soul's content! I just find it odd. And you're right, this place is not for me.