Reality - thing or phenomenon?

Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2021 10:20 am
@Frank Apisa,
You say, “Either of us may be correct; either of us may be incorrect; and considering the limits of human understanding...both of us could be correct or incorrect”, but, how can that be?? The Experience of solidity does in fact prove a Truth exists, just as “liquid” proves thought or consciousness, imo. The Agreement factor determines merely HOW we Experience What we Experience. To some this appears as a loss of control, and therefore they freak out. But if looked at from the perspective of Truth is Reality, solidity, and Eternal, and we see the Water as unstable until aligned with the Truth, then how could we ever truly seek our own way?
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Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2021 02:48 pm
In order to discredit materialism you have first to know what materialism ultimately is. I know no Physic that truly knows what materialism is and therefore I have trouble in understanding what spiritualism opposes to and is.

The distinction between subject and object is fading more and more and we all can get back to Parmenides and Heraclitus debate at the source of what Reality is. Change or permanence!

If I had to abstract away to the extreme Spiritus is for motion while Materialism is for Permanence Substance. But even that says very little.

First off in order for something to change it has to have substance so what is it that changes? And when it changes why doesn't it change to something really alien, really out of this reality, why does change itself can only be grasped if what changes goes round to what exists already in some form of another with the same or an otherwise know pattern?

Does the Spiritual Realm has things or only "spirits"?
Does it have abstract objects like numbers or properties?
It has to doesn't it? And if it has to how do spirits ontologically fair in this so called spiritualism?

As I see it it all boils down to substance back again and in that sense Spiritualism is just a fancy word to an alternate form of materialism, supposedly with animism in mind. But then again mind and free will are the ultimate illusion. A REAL illusion. One worth having I grant you that...

In a short sentence:
You see the interesting thing about Phenomena is that they also are Noumena!

PS - The so called great debate between Spiritualism and Materialism if seen from above at a much higher IQ level will definitely seem monkey talk to whatever might be observing. As I write this and rest my case, I stand still and smile.
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Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2021 07:12 pm
Cyracuz, Interestingly put, I think one must distinguish between apparent reality and what is call ultimate reality. Apparent reality is a biological readout, it is the world according to our senses and understandings. What is beyond our senses or understanding comes to the investagations of science into ultimate reality. Apparent reality is a world of objects, ultimate reality is a place of no things, guess I am just reiterating your question.---LOL!!
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