Reality - thing or phenomenon?

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

He obviously believed , or still believes, that the phrase "before the big bang" makes sense.

One would assume he believes his car (if he has one) is where he left it .(If so, he might be be amused to learn that I believed I would be driving to the airport one morning only to find that mine had been stolen during the night).
Indeed all planning involves multiple levels of belief, and some would say "planning" is what differentiates us from other animals.

Nice try...no cigar.

I do not do believing.

I suppose my car is where I left it. Actually, I can see it from where I am typing, so I know it is there.

No believing needed here.

But like I said...nice try.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Do you believe you'll play golf again? Or is that only a guess? LOL

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

How would you know? You don't have beliefs. You only have guesses.
You're full of contradiction or as many would say, bull ****!

BTW, I'm posting this with a smile.

I know I do not have beliefs...because I do not disguise my guesses and estimates and suppositions with a word like "believe."

No contradictions...no bull ****.

Typed with a big smile on my face also.

This is fun. Let's keep doing it.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Do you believe you'll play golf again? Or is that only a guess? LOL

I certainly suppose...and plan to play golf again. I may die tonight. Would that make you happy that I was wrong in what I supposed?

If I did die, would calling my supposition a belief have made a difference?

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@Frank Apisa,

Naw, you're a ****'n merry-go-round.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Naw, you're a ****'n merry-go-round.

No really, I am not.

By the way, you didn't answer my question.

Perhaps the "die" part upset you...so let me set the bar lower.

Suppose on my way to the golf course tomorrow, some kid texting smashes into me and crushes my spine so that I can NEVER play golf again...

...would it please you that my "plan" to play golf tomorrow did not come to fruition?

Would that impact on whether it was a plan...or supposition...and would things be different if I had used the word "believe" like you seem to be demanding of me?

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@fresco,

Code:

My answer was not convoluted. On the contrary it was lucid in that it pointed out exactly in what contexts an answer of "yes" might make sense.

Yes, in the context of " current scientific" thought.

The question then becomes: is current science a better source of knowledge about the universe than, say, philosophy or Buddhism?

My answer is yes, of course. As far as our understanding of the universe goes, of course science is much better than philosophy. In actual fact, science has cut deep into old philosophical ideas and domains, such as in particular understanding the origin of things. Old myths are cute but my bets are on Darwin and astronony instead.

More fundamentally, to deny the exisyence of a universe independent of life forms or sentient beings able to perceive it, seems very naive to me, very anthropocentric, even if one includes the rats and aliens and the gods in the equation. It's still "sentient-centric". Un non-necessary hypothethis. A HUGE assumption without a good reason for it.

Why NOT a non-sentient universe?

Why should man, among all species on earth and beyond earth, be the measure of everything?

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@Olivier5,

You are asking a question that only individuals can answer for themselves.

For some, their understanding of philosophy and/or buddhism is a better source than science for them. That's their own perception and belief for whatever reasons they choose, and the reasons can be as varied as there are differences in perceptions and beliefs.

For me, science best explains our environment, because it's more objective than subjective. It doesn't rely on subjective guesses and assumptions.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

He obviously believed , or still believes, that the phrase "before the big bang" makes sense.

One would assume he believes his car (if he has one) is where he left it .(If so, he might be be amused to learn that I believed I would be driving to the airport one morning only to find that mine had been stolen during the night).

Indeed all planning involves multiple levels of belief, and some would say "planning" is what differentiates us from other animals.

By the way, Fresco...you ought really to Google "Before the Big Bang."

Many, many scientists think the expression "before the Big Bang" makes lots of sense...and is an area that ought to be explored by science.

I find it amusing to think a guy as smart as you...so much more intelligent than I...would think it doesn't make sense.

Case not closed at all.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Scientific knowledge is about successful prediction and control. What meditational practices do is question that pre-occupation with (limited) control . In that sense they can be considered to be a path to transcendent knowledge.

For a final time on this thread I will point out that a concept of "the universe" is axiomatically anthropocentric. Only a naive realist would assume that such a concept (thingfulness) has functionality with respect to other species. Remember the frog who dies surrounded what we call "dead flies"? What sort of "universe" do you imagine constitutes that of a frog ? And what plethora of "dead flies" might we human frogs conceptualize in future versions of "the universe" ?

As far as we know, only humans use "words" which refer to concepts. i.e Through socialization we acquire a set of linguistic spectacles with which we functionally and selecrtively segment what we call the world into useful entities/categories. Languaging is a complex human behavior concerned with co-ordinating planning activities by nominalization (thinging). Properties of things amount to predictions of our interactions with members of such categories.

No thinger ...no thing....no relationship ...no events ...no "existence".

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Yes, I've googled big bang and I have read about recent modifications of the original model towards some of the alternative paradigms I mentioned like "multiverse collision". Such paradigmatic shifts are inevitable because some scientists are indeed uncomfortable with counter-intuitive concepts of time. But the adoption or otherwise of such models has nothing to do with the lay concept of "correctness"... it is based on "goodness of fit" to existing data, and generation of new data. The epistemological case will NEVER close unless you evoke a "God" to rule on closure.

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Yes, I've googled big bang and I have read about recent modifications of the original model towards some of the alternative paradigms I mentioned like "multiverse collision". Such paradigmatic shifts are inevitable because some scientists are indeed uncomfortable with counter-intuitive concepts of time. But the adoption or otherwise of such models has nothing to do with the lay concept of "correctness"... it is based on "goodness of fit" to existing data, and generation of new data. The epistemological case will NEVER close unless you evoke a "God" to rule on closure.

Fresco...the mocking tone of your "He obviously believed , or still believes, that the phrase "before the big bang" makes sense"...is both obvious and inappropriate. The term "before the Big Bang" (usually capitalized) makes plenty of sense...the sarcastic, mocking tone WAS inappropriate.

You would have done much better by simply acknowledging that it was inappropriate...rather than create a new thesis. Science may, in the future, be able to answer more questions about "before the Big Bang" than you think...and without invoking any sort of "God."

One would think that someone as intelligent as you would realize all this...and handle the situation with a but more class and deference to the intent of the inappropriate barb.

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@fresco,

Hey fresco, Franks says you're "intelligent."

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@fresco,

Actually, I think you are very intelligent, Fresco. And you are informative. But you tend to use wording that is unnecessarily complex for your audience here.

I personally hope you ease up on the "I can really make things complicated"...mostly because it does seem unnecessary.

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@Frank Apisa,

I thought it was settled that science, philosophy, buddhism (mysticism) and art each serve best to provide answers for different kinds of questions.

BTW, Frank, you've rarely sounded smarter.

1 Reply

@fresco,

Quote:

Scientific knowledge is about successful prediction and control. What meditational practices do is question that pre-occupation with (limited) control

Science is not all about control, it's primarily about finding laws, or inventing them perhaps. And studying and understanding the world, including how small man is in it, e.g. allowing man to let go of his naive, magical antropocentric views of old, including those of buddhism. Science is about man growing up and facing the world rationally.

Your superstition is about man being both nothing and everything, and language and words being both nothing but coins in meaningless transaction between epiphenomena, AND all powerful and magical makers of the world at the same time. It's a loose bag of condradictions and superstitions.

Meditate away, fresco.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLN, They're really not "different kinds of questions." Some may have the ability to separate science from their religious belief, but they will end up contradicting each other at some point. Religious beliefs are dogmatic in their essence, and it's ideas cannot remain consistent with science.

We have often heard of scientists who are christians or of one religion or another. They all play personal mind games to rationalize the acceptance of both.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Good clip...especially the beard !

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

Science is not all about control, it's primarily about finding laws

So "laws" have nothing to do with "control" ? Laughing

But I will rest my case.

1 Reply

Reality - thing or phenomenon?

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