The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

@MontereyJack,

Quote:

He chased Trayvon. That's vigilantism.

You're lying again, Monkeyjerk. Zimmerman got out of a car to check a street number for the cops and was walking BACK to his vehicle when Martin doubled back and attacked him. All Martin had to do was continue walking home (he didn't even have to run), and he'd be alive.

Or he could have decided to be an ordinary (non murderer) asshole and just punched Zimmerman ONCE and walked away... He'd still be alive. But, no, Trayvon Martin had to try to be a SUPER ASSHOLE, knock Zimmerman down with the sucker punch AND THEN JUMP ON TOP OF HIM AND TRY TO LITERALLY BEAT HIM TO DEATH.

That's why the stupid bastard is dead.

1 Reply

Zimmy elected to call the police
qua a character that seemed a little dangerous.
He was fully within his rights.

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@MontereyJack,

Quote:

When Zimmerman chased Trayvo...

Liar...

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The bad guy is repeatedly referred to as a "kid" or a "child".
He was a dangerous criminal; very near to being a murderer,
except that his victim was lucky enuf to shoot him before he cud complete his murder.

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@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
He chased Trayvon. That's vigilantism.

You're lying again, Monkeyjerk. Zimmerman got out of a car to check a street number for the cops and was walking BACK to his vehicle when Martin doubled back and attacked him. All Martin had to do was continue walking home (he didn't even have to run), and he'd be alive.

Or he could have decided to be an ordinary (non murderer) asshole and just punched Zimmerman ONCE and walked away... He'd still be alive. But, no, Trayvon Martin had to try to be a SUPER ASSHOLE, knock Zimmerman down with the sucker punch AND THEN JUMP ON TOP OF HIM AND TRY TO LITERALLY BEAT HIM TO DEATH.

That's why the stupid bastard is dead.

Yes; stupid and malicious.
He had already escaped from Zimmy 's observation.
He returned n intercepted Zimmy, with malice.

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@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

David says:
Quote:
He looked like he was casing the naborhood, in the rain, 17 or not.

Trayvon had done no crime,

Yes, not yet,
but Zimmy had the right to look at him and to call the police anyway.

MontereyJack wrote:

he was not responsible for ANYTHING that Zimmerman profiled him for. You're right in one thing, though, David.
Trayvon should have been armed, and he should have shot Zimmerman first because he wass clearly justified in his fear of him.

That is irrational.
Zimmy followed, peacefully; that is perfectly lawful and moral.
There is no new law against following; (that 'd be hard to enforce in NY).

MontereyJack wrote:

It's unfortunate that the agressive, mistaken Zimmerman had the only gun,
becuaswe he ws clearly wrong all the way down the line.

Let 's turn that around, shall we, Jack
for the full benefit of your wisdom?????
Henceforth, when we whites see blacks behind us
and we think that maybe thay r approaching to mug us,
then we shud pre-emptively open up on them with heavy duty firepower??

Is that what u advise me to do from now on ?????

David

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
He chased Trayvon. That's vigilantism.

You're lying again, Monkeyjerk. Zimmerman got out of a car to check a street number for the cops and was walking BACK to his vehicle when Martin doubled back and attacked him. All Martin had to do was continue walking home (he didn't even have to run), and he'd be alive.

Or he could have decided to be an ordinary (non murderer) asshole and just punched Zimmerman ONCE and walked away... He'd still be alive. But, no,

Trayvon Martin had to try to be a SUPER ASSHOLE, knock Zimmerman down with the sucker punch AND
THEN JUMP ON TOP OF HIM AND TRY TO LITERALLY BEAT HIM TO DEATH

The moral of the story is:
if u wanna beat a citizen to death,
u better be careful to select a pacifistic
supporter of gun control for your deadly beating !

David

1 Reply

@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

Only your biased judgment.

Hardly biased.

MontereyJack wrote:

She was an ear witness to the confrontation. She has no vested interest in playing the victim to escape a murder charge, as Zimmerman does.

But she does have a vested interest in portraying Trayvon in the best possible light and in getting revenge on the person who shot him.

And she got caught lying under oath.

MontereyJack wrote:

I'd say her account is the most reliable, and plausible, account of the start of the confrontation that there is.

But the reality is that it isn't.

MontereyJack wrote:

You're trying to cherry pick the evidence. As usual.

Nothing wrong with filtering out unreliable evidence.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

if u wanna beat a citizen to death,

Actually - the photos don't suggest enough injuries to be even close to life threatening. A broken nose and slight lacerations to the back of the head.

Quote:

Testifying for the prosecution at Zimmerman's trial, Medical Examiner Valerie Rao said she reviewed Zimmerman's medical records and 36 pictures of his injuries taken at the police station after the fight.

"They were not life-threatening. They were very insignificant," Rao told the Seminole County criminal court jury.

As a personal opinion, the injuries look to me to be sustained after Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose - causing the back of Zimmermans head to strike the ground.

It is quite reasonable to hypothesise that Zimmerman, having just lost a fight with a criminal (as Zimmerman believed) would have been mightily pissed off.

I'm also curious how Martin - who can overpower Zimmerman enough to apparently continually slam his head into the ground, can see his gun holstered (this was Zimmermans claim), and lose the struggle with Zimmerman for the gun...remembering that he has overpowered Zimmerman up until this stage (and once a gun in involved in a struggle- both parties are in fear for their lives)

And I'm curious to know how far the altercation was from Zimmermans vehicle (as Zimmermans version puts him in close proximity to his vehicle). I can't locate that info.

I'd love to see an aerial map of all this, versions included.

The 911 call puts Zimmerman following Martin on foot for between 30-45 seconds.

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

I'd love to see an aerial map of all this, versions included.

Here:
http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing.jpg

Note that the positions and timeline included in the map are the work of an amateur blogger. I believe they are at least somewhat accurate (as accurate as a rough estimate can be), but they aren't in any way "official".

Special thanks to Parados for posting the map for me way back when.

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@vikorr,

DAVID wrote:

if u wanna beat a citizen to death,

vikorr wrote:

Actually - the photos don't suggest enough injuries to be even close to life threatening.
A broken nose and slight lacerations to the back of the head.

It is obvious that when anyone is having his head beaten on the street,
the very next impact will be of unknown intensity
and it might cause significant permanent injury, including death,
and indeed the ones that have already been inflicted
might do so. Even a doctor cannot diagnose under those circumstances.
It is a lot safer to KILL the criminal. Zimmy did; he has my congratulation!

vikorr wrote:

both parties are in fear for their lives)

Not necessarily; it has ofen happened that when people
have been put into danger, events happen so fast
that thay do not have time to fear, nor to have any emotion,
but thay can get killed anyway.

When someone shot at me (3 inches in front of my face),
I thought it was mildly funny, as I drew my own gun out.

On the other hand, I have become fearful before political elections.

David

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@oralloy,

Quote:

parados wrote:
Considering Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin in his car, I think it's reasonable to assume Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin.
Not even remotely reasonable. It is entirely plausible that Zimmerman stopped his pursuit when the dispatcher advised it, and then Trayvon came up to him and assaulted him.

So, does this mean no one presented any such evidence?

I've been following this but not saying anything. It is a sad case all around.

Rather than read and believe all the news reports as there is a new article this morning out in USA today - that points out all the things that the media got incorrect. For instance there was one on ABC that made it seem that Zimmerman called Trayvon black - Zimmerman only said this after being asked directly by the 9-1-1 operater if he was white, black, hispanic and then Zimmerman said he looks black.

So much is muffled going either way. for instance the above - Zimmerman left his car (and this is listening to the actual 9-1-1 call) when they were asking where he was and asking for a description - so it appears Zimmerman left to find out exactly the location/get a better description (of course it could be for something more sinister - but we don't know) - all we know is he left the car after the dispatcher asked for more detailed information. Then afterward giving this information they told him to go back to his car - Zimmerman then says OK, but we do not know anything further. It makes it appear that Zimmerman was agreeing - but we do not know for sure.

So it is unknown if Zimmerman was intending to listen and go back and Treyvon jumped him or if Zimmerman continued following him.

I think that is what gives reasonable doubt - you can't guess on here of course, but you cannot as a juror.

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@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

So much is muffled going either way. for instance the above - Zimmerman left his car (and this is listening to the actual 9-1-1 call) when they were asking where he was and asking for a description - so it appears Zimmerman left to find out exactly the location/get a better description (of course it could be for something more sinister - but we don't know) - all we know is he left the car after the dispatcher asked for more detailed information.

That's an interesting take. The usual perspective is that he left the car in order to keep Trayvon in sight.

I'll have to go over the transcripts to see how that works out.

Linkat wrote:

Then afterward giving this information they told him to go back to his car - Zimmerman then says OK, but we do not know anything further. It makes it appear that Zimmerman was agreeing - but we do not know for sure.

They didn't instruct him to go back to his car. They just told him that they didn't need him to follow Trayvon.

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@Linkat,

Quote:

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring…
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got
something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does
anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These assholes they always get away. When you come to the
clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the
clubhouse.
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh
you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. **** he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…******* [unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.
Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?
Zimmerman: [redacted by Mother Jones]
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the
officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the
club house, and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they
go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...[unintelligible]
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes
then?
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it [redacted by Mother Jones]
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the
area.
Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You’re welcome.

source

1 Reply

@Linkat,

Linkat wrote:

Quote:
parados wrote:
Considering Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin in his car, I think it's reasonable to assume Zimmerman got out of his car and followed Martin.
Not even remotely reasonable. It is entirely plausible that Zimmerman stopped his pursuit when the dispatcher advised it, and then Trayvon came up to him and assaulted him.

So, does this mean no one presented any such evidence?

I've been following this but not saying anything. It is a sad case all around.

Rather than read and believe all the news reports as there is a new article this morning out in USA today - that points out all the things that the media got incorrect. For instance there was one on ABC that made it seem that Zimmerman called Trayvon black - Zimmerman only said this after being asked directly by the 9-1-1 operater if he was white, black, hispanic and then Zimmerman said he looks black.

So much is muffled going either way. for instance the above - Zimmerman left his car (and this is listening to the actual 9-1-1 call) when they were asking where he was and asking for a description - so it appears Zimmerman left to find out exactly the location/get a better description (of course it could be for something more sinister - but we don't know) - all we know is he left the car after the dispatcher asked for more detailed information. Then afterward giving this information they told him to go back to his car - Zimmerman then says OK, but we do not know anything further. It makes it appear that Zimmerman was agreeing - but we do not know for sure.

So it is unknown if Zimmerman was intending to listen and go back and Treyvon jumped him or if Zimmerman continued following him.

I think that is what gives reasonable doubt - you can't guess on here of course, but you cannot as a juror.

For reasonable doubt:
Zimmy KNEW that the police were approaching
because he called them himself n he was TOLD thay were coming.
Thay might well have had the fight under their observation
and any number of his nabors cud have been out there
photographing the fight with their fones.
Any number of nabors cud have heard the screams
and been watching thru their windows from inside,
some taking pictures. Under those circumstances,
wud anyone in his right mind wanna commit felonies
in front of the police and in front of the world??

Every day of every week for decades in all large cities,
blacks have killed other blacks without objection.
This was a politically race-based case because Zimmy is not a black.
If he were, then Sharpton wud have left him alone
and the Republican governor wud not have fired
the local prosecutor and installed his pit bull (pit cow??)
to sic on Zimmy. He was conspicuously innocent,
with a heart of gold.
Really a nice guy; the un-armed Olivia shud be very grateful.

David

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@oralloy,

Quote:

the claims that he lied about funds are overblown....

They aren't just "claims" and there is nothing "overblown" about this. There is substantial evidence that both Zimmerman and his wife moved their assets between accounts in order to conceal them from his lawyer and the court so he would appear indigent. While Zimmerman was incarcerated awaiting bail, the two of them talked in code about what they were doing, and these conversations were recorded. Zimmerman's lawyer, O'Mara, admitted, to the judge, they had done this, and that they had deceived him as well.

Shelley Zimmerman testified in court, under oath, that their assets were minimal (when they were actually close to $150,000 in cash) and she has been charged with perjury--she's been out on bail since--and she faces 1-2 years in jail. Zimmerman did not testify in court about their assets, so he was not charged with perjury, although he was involved in their scheme to conceal their assets. The judge blew up at Zimmerman, saying he sat in court, "like a potted plant," while he allowed his wife to lie to the court. That's why Zimmerman's original bail was revoked and set at a considerably higher amount. Donations to Zimmerman's legal defense fund also dried up after this all came out because it was a substantial blow to Zimmerman's credibility--he had just revealed himself as a brazen liar.

Disposition of Shelley Zimmerman's perjury charge was delayed until after her husband's trial. Now that that's over, Mrs Zimmerman may now well be facing jail time, since the evidence against her is overwhelming, and she lied to a judge about a matter that judge had to rule on, which makes it a serious perjury charge in the eyes of the court. I can't think of any reason Mrs Zimmerman wouldn't go to jail over this matter.

Since Mark O"Mara has already admitted that Zimmerman did lie about his assets, and did conspire with his wife to transfer them between accounts in order to conceal them, you might as well admit it too, oralloy. There is no point in your denying reality in this matter. The facts are known, and not disputed.

Since this all involved Zimmerman's bail and his bail hearings, it was not directly relevant to possible lies he told regarding the shooting of Martin, so it was not introduced at his trial. But, in the court of public opinion, it provides clear evidence that George Zimmerman is a brazen, bald-faced, untrustworthy liar, even in legal matters, and that he cannot be taken at his word.

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POINT OF INFORMATION, EVERYONE:
Please check me on this, from your memories:
Defense counsel never argued to the jury
that defendant KNEW that the police were approaching
and he also knew that any number of nabors, both inside and outside,
cud possibly be watching the fight in response to the screams
such that he 'd not wish to commit crimes in front of
the whole world and in front of approaching police.

I did not hear that argument used; did any of u hear that ??

David

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Both sides emphasized it was extremely dark in that area, so it was difficult for any bystander or witness to see what was going on if they were more than about three or four feet away--and no one was that close.

Zimmerman knew how dark it was--that's why he said he needed flashlights. He knew that fight, and how it started, could not have been clearly seen by anyone.

But I think that Zimmerman told the police that he was reaching for his cell phone, as Martin came toward him, to conceal the fact he had actually reached for his gun, just in case he had been seen moving his arm toward his gun. I think he had that gun out throughout the fight--he had it holstered in the back, and there would have been no way for him to reach it and pull it out once Martin was on top of him.
But, had Zimmerman told police the gun was out, and that the entire fight was a struggle for the gun, he would have faced 10 years for brandishing a weapon under Florida law.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Since he knew the police were coming he should have let them handle it rather than worrying about the "punks always getting away."

3 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

Fine upstanding characters, Mr and Mrs Zimmerman are not.

I agree - but lying and hiding money does not equate to being a murderer. Same as whether Treyvon smoked pot or was in trouble before meant he deserved to be shot and was up to trouble walking around this neighborhood.

Unfortunately we do not know what really happened. We do know that Zimmerman is guilty of making a bad decision - he did get out of his car at one point when he probably should have not. Aside from that even if he did lie about things - there was nothing in any other evidence that points out he did more than make a bad decision.

We cannot put people in jail (or they would be filled to capacity) for making bad decisions. It wasn't illegal for him to leave his car with a gun. Beyond that there is no other evidence of what happened for sure.

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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

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