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The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

 
 
revelette
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 03:55 pm
All she said was "it could" which is not proof that it did so that is not proof that Zimmerman was justified in his "belief he was in fear of his life." Since it has been a year and there has been no discernible evidence of Zimmerman having sustained such a bad injury that he had a concussion or other serious injury, then Zimmerman was not in danger of loosing his life. Maybe he thought he was but that is a different argument than the one you are arguing.
Thomas
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:01 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
All she said was "it could" which is not proof that it did so

No it isn't. So what? For the umptieth time: The defense does not have to prove anything. The prosecution has to disprove every reasonable hypothesis except Zimmerman's guilt. So when Folgate says "it could", that's good enough for the defense, but bad for the prosecution.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:23 pm
It seems there are other issues about the trial that's being discussed by the pundits. I'll try to list a few of them.
a) If Martin was sitting on top of Zimmerman, how did Zimmerman (who had the gun on his back) get the gun? Zimmerman had his shirt and/or jacket that covered the gun.
b) If Zimmerman had his hands free to reach for the gun, why didn't he push Martin away rather than reaching for his gun?
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:25 pm
@Thomas,
Even if on the odd chance he did get a concussion, the medical examiner said his injuries were not life threatening.

Quote:
Valerie Rao said she reviewed Zimmerman's medical records and the pictures of his injuries taken at a police station after the confrontation in a gated community in Sanford, Florida.

"They were not life-threatening. They were very insignificant," she told the jury.

Zimmerman, 29, claimed he shot Trayvon in self-defence after the 17-year-old punched him in the face and repeatedly slammed his head into the pavement


source
roger
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:33 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

By contrast, it is well within the realm of reasonable doubt to hypothesize that Zimmerman suffered a concussion that stunned him for a few minutes, but did not require further medical attention when Folgate examined him the next afternoon.


Relevant or not, I'm going to mention that I have twice been "stunned" to the point of having several seconds of lost memory. Both were accidents with major injuries, and neither involved the head in any way.
BillW
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:45 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Seeing the last day highlights and "talking head analyses", I don't see why the defense cant rest. Im anxious to hear the summations before it goes to the jury (Including final instructions from the judge)

Talking heads seem to feel that the jury will be surprised at these automatic Mandatory Maximum Sentences that each verdict would draw . 30 years for manslaughter makes the possibility for acquittal a bit higher,


11 years for manslaughter w/gun
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:48 pm
@BillW,
I said MAXIMUM , you are quoting Mandatory Minimums
BillW
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 04:54 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

This guy testifying now says if you don't win a physical fight in the first thirty seconds you have to change tactics. I guess if two boys in school yard get into a fight, the looser is justified in pulling out a gun and ending it before he gets anymore bruised up...


No, only people with concealed weapon permits are allowed to kill other people with guns and a kid (such as Trayvon) can't get that permit!
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  3  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 05:01 pm
@roger,
New Years eve 1992 I was in San Diego and walking along a street with my brother and a friend of his. We were walking by some dudes and we happen to say "Happy New Years". The reply was "what did you say about my mom". At this point I was approached by one of the guys and I was hit once in the face. I instantly blacked out and had to be carried home. I don't recall anything after being hit and that includes the trip to the emergency room. To this day I still don't remember being hit or the walk home or the trip to the ER. I'm lucky my brother and his friend were there, if they weren't who knows how my night would have turned out.

It doesn't take a lot for some people and in truth some people are tougher then others. Due to my glass jaw, I don't look for trouble but if it found me, I would be likely to shoot first and ask questions later due to my previous experience.
BillW
 
  3  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 05:05 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

Quote:
1) The schoolyard story was a hypothetical. Don't attack a hypothetical because its facts aren't real. Of course they aren't! That's what makes it a hypothetical.


I misunderstood, I thought you were talking of Zimmerman not continuing on with the school yard hypothetical situation.

I do not believe that the defense theory of Zimmerman's head being pounded on concrete and therefore he was in fear of his is life consistent with the facts. All he had was two minor abrasions on his head and a bloody nose according to the states medical examiner (the lady not the guy who did the autopsy) which I found very credible. You may disagree and so might the jury in which they will acquit.

On a bright note (at least from my perspective) I have been out a lot, but it seems like the state attorney, Guy somebody, is doing fairly well today.


More stronger evidence, so did Zimmerman's medical assistance that physically touched the wounds, said that all the swelling and other contussions had gone away and was very slight. She couldn't even conclude that there was a broken nose, though we know there was cause of the 1st picture. I have had a couple or three of them in my days , just snap the nose back in place ajd it is swore for a few days. I have more pain every day from my problems that Zimmerman had in that fight - what a wus - and he knew the police would be there in 2-3 minutes. Did he help Trayvon, hell no, he just wandered around developing a self serving, lying story!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 05:05 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Your assertion is un-justified;
e.g., at trial with a presumption of guilt,
defendant cud be held to prove himself innocent.


I'm in favour of people being allowed to kill anybody who annoys them. I feel sure it would reduce the number of annoying people.

If that was not Goldwater's position it is hard to imagine him being a conservative.

I think that you just pose as conservative Dave, like Fox News, when you are actually a wet liberal commie suffragette with no tits.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 05:23 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I said MAXIMUM , you are quoting Mandatory Minimums


I was just providing information that hadn't been stated any place else. I was correcting you. The other part that I didn't say was that without the gun the minimum would be 9 1/4 years. BTW, I don't think they can tell the jury this information. They are suppose to make their decisions based upon guilt or innocense. Of course, if it is already known by someone - oh well. Also, I don't know what happens if they ask the judge. I know when I sat on a murder jury trial we asked some questions (can't remember what, it was almost 30 years ago) that the judge said she couldn't answer.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  3  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 05:25 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

New Years eve 1992 I was in San Diego and walking along a street with my brother and a friend of his. We were walking by some dudes and we happen to say "Happy New Years". The reply was "what did you say about my mom". At this point I was approached by one of the guys and I was hit once in the face. I instantly blacked out and had to be carried home. I don't recall anything after being hit and that includes the trip to the emergency room. To this day I still don't remember being hit or the walk home or the trip to the ER. I'm lucky my brother and his friend were there, if they weren't who knows how my night would have turned out.

It doesn't take a lot for some people and in truth some people are tougher then others. Due to my glass jaw, I don't look for trouble but if it found me, I would be likely to shoot first and ask questions later due to my previous experience.



Sure wish Zimmerman had of passed out. Trayvon, remember - the innocent victim, would be alive today. And, the cops were still 2 minutes away. Then again, sure would have been nice if Zimmerman had of simply said, "I am from the Neighborhood Watch Program - could you please tell me why you are here? And, by the way, I have a loaded gun with a round in the chamber and no safety." He had three, count them, them times to do this. And, the cop who testified today said that would have been the first thing he would have done!

Also, Trayvon wasn't looking for trouble, it also found him!
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 05:27 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
I don't look for trouble but if it found me, I would be likely to shoot first and ask questions later due to my previous experience.


In rule of law countries individuals are held to higher standards than that, B. And that y'all allow supposedly thinking people in office that pass these idiotic laws speaks volumes about your country and your collective sanity.

This case and this thread also speaks volumes about those same things.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 05:35 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

revelette wrote:
All she said was "it could" which is not proof that it did so

No it isn't. So what? For the umptieth time: The defense does not have to prove anything. The prosecution has to disprove every reasonable hypothesis except Zimmerman's guilt. So when Folgate says "it could", that's good enough for the defense, but bad for the prosecution.


Don't forget Thomas that the distance from "Resonable Doubt" and it really happened is someone saying -"There is evidence enough for me to say it has really happened." And guess what, the judge said that there is enough evidence, both direct and circumstanstial, for this trail on Murder 2, not even mentioning Manslaughter and Aggrivated Assault, should go before the a jury. It is truly before the jury after rebuttal (which I think is over) and closing arguments.
engineer
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 06:17 pm
@BillW,
I was listening to a couple of trial lawyers discussing the trial on NPR and they said there is no way this is M2. Manslaughter maybe, but they should have never tried for M2 based on the evidence they had.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 06:46 pm
@engineer,
What evidence?
DrewDad
 
  3  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 07:02 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
And his body could have been taken over by aliens and they made him pull the trigger....

Now this is where we enter the realm of unreasonable doubt.

By contrast, it is well within the realm of reasonable doubt to hypothesize that Zimmerman suffered a concussion that stunned him for a few minutes, but did not require further medical attention when Folgate examined him the next afternoon.

This is where you enter unreasonable doubt. I entered unreasonable doubt when the discussion turned from what one expects to see to some woo-woo idea of what might possibly happen in theory.

I know people who have suffered concussions, and they didn't pull out guns and start shooting people.. Also, suffering from a concussion does not change the fact that the law specifies what a reasonable person would do. Legal insanity has nothing in common with real-world insanity.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 07:20 pm
@DrewDad,
Thomas wrote,
Quote:
By contrast, it is well within the realm of reasonable doubt to hypothesize that Zimmerman suffered a concussion that stunned him for a few minutes, but did not require further medical attention when Folgate examined him the next afternoon.


Totally wrong! Zimmerman refused to be taken to the hospital that day.

From Newsmax.com.
Quote:
Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest “at very close range,” police told the Sentinel. When they arrived, they found Zimmerman bleeding from the nose and head. He was treated at the scene but refused to go to the hospital.


If he suffered a concussion, what transpired afterwards in the trial is his problem. All the other witnesses said he didn't suffer any trauma.

OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Wed 10 Jul, 2013 07:32 pm
@Thomas,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
I voted for Barry Goldwater and I represent his philosophy
of the Orthodox Americanism of the Founders of the Republic.
As such, it comes naturally, inexorably to me to support
the presumption of innocence
. If I were so fortunate
as to successfully convince u to adopt my point of vu,
wud u then abandon the presumption of innocence??
Thomas wrote:
No, I wouldn't. When it comes to people's due-process rights,
libertarians and liberals are barely distinguishable.
I see the Zimmerman case the same way today as I would have
seen it 10 years ago, when I considered myself a libertarian.
Thank u, Tom.
Perhaps some time u will indicate the reason
that the quest for liberty fell from grace, in your eyes.





David
 

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