The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

if the state believes that zimmerman is mentally unstable to the point that he is a danger (ie believes what you believe) then it has an obligation to press at the bail hearing for a mental health component of condition of release, for monitoring purposes in its pursuit of its duties to protect the welfare of the citizens. this is NOT about competency to stand trial.

Maybe in family court, not in criminal court.

The state is holding him criminally responsible--his mental health status is not their concern or obligation in this criminal matter. If he is considered a threat to the community, based on his actions that led to arrest, they would simply argue for no bail. That's how they protect the welfare of other citizens. And prohibiting him from contact with guns is another--but that's based on the fact he's charged with a gun felony, not his psychiatric status.

And, if bail was denied, he would be provided with any necessary psychiatric treatment within the jail, or in a forensic psychiatric unit, but he would remain incarcerated within the criminal justice system, and would not be placed in the civilian mental health system. The Dept. of Corrections is required to provide mental health care, just as they are required to provide needed medical and dental care. And, if he was considered a danger to other inmates, he would be placed in a segregated housing area,

This has nothing to do with competency.

In a criminal case, issues regarding the mental health of the defendant are raised by the defense, the state treats criminal charges and criminal conduct criminally and not as mental health issues.

You just don't understand how the system works.

And, because of that, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

If he is considered a threat to the community, based on his actions that led to arrest, they would simply argue for no bail.

again I find myself hoping that no law school produced your ignorance. Bail in our system is supposed to be offered except in the very rare cases when the risk to the community or of flight would be to great to bare in spite of all available efforts to mitigate the risk. It would be abuse to let a man sit in jail for months when the public safety demands could be met with mental health monitoring.

I am not sure what reasoning was offered for the states claim that the proper bail amount in this case was $50k, but we do know that what ever it was the judge dismissed it. what i dont see is anyone who matters claiming that this man is a mentally unstable threat to the community. I wonder why.

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@hawkeye10,

You have been an easy target, because you have NEVER proven my charges against you. NEVER. That you know the definition of words such as "violence" is only an indication of how ignorant you are. When most people use that word, it's about physical violence - by guns or other instruments.

You have a tiny brain that is based on your imagination, and not on the realities of this world.

The only person complaining is you. Ever wonder why?

That's beyond your capacity to comprehend.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

When most people use that word, it's about physical violence - by guns or other instruments.

you are very out of date, once the feminists got ahold of that word the meaning changed dramatically. sexual violence is for instance often nothing more than the absence of the desired level of consent, and relationship violence is any effort to convince a partner to do what the other one wants. i dont often agree with the expansion of definitions of words but as a socialist I see some value in redefining violence as any unreasonable effort to power over the will of another for personal gain. you may be a teddy bear in person but at A2K you tend to be a very violent person.

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@hawkeye10,

Hawkeye in surveys paid for by the DOJ if a woman reported she was a subject of an attempted force kiss she is a victim of an sexual assault. Once more it is not even a force kiss it is an attempted force kiss!!!!!!!!

Then they had gone even beyond that if the woman feel pressure to have sex of any kind that is also sexual assault.

As I had said before any of the leading men who would take part in a redo of any 1950s romance comedies would be charge with supporting sexual violence.

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@hawkeye10,

That's how ignorant you are; everybody knows that sexual violence against women is wrong. However, your stretching the topic of this thread; it's about gun violence.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

it's about gun violence.

I still find it very strange to cut out one tool that can be used to inflicted violence, as if anyone who could not get his or her hand on this one type of tool will just forget about their desire to do violence.

Kind of insane thinking as if guns are the same as the Lord of the Rings magical ring that by itself have the power to cause the desire to do violence.

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@cicerone imposter,

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knows that sexual violence against women is wrong

An evolutionist doesn't know that until he has seen evidence that such a thing is bad for the species. Only a good Christian could be sure it is wrong.

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@spendius,

A good christian is a bigot against women.

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@cicerone imposter,

In what way?

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@spendius,

From the bible.

Quote:

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.)

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@cicerone imposter,

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A husband could divorce his wife; women on the other hand could not ask for divorce... the wife called her husband Ba'al or master; she also called him adon or lord; she addressed him, in fact, as a slave addressed his master or subject, his king. The Decalogue includes a man's wife among his possessions... all her life she remains a minor. The wife does not inherit from her husband, nor daughters from their father, except when there is no male heir. A vow made by a girl or married woman needs, to be valid, the consent of the father or husband and if this consent is withheld, the vow is null and void. A man had a right to sell his daughter. Women were excluded from the succession."

-Roland de Vaux, archaeologist and priest

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

It would be abuse to let a man sit in jail for months when the public safety demands could be met with mental health monitoring.

It's not the job of mental health professionals to offer "monitoring" of criminal defendants, of the sort you are suggesting. Their function is to deliver treatment. What world are you in?

The criminal justice system uses denial of bail to protect the community from a defendant who is considered criminally dangerous to the community while awaiting trial. The Aurora shooter was denied bail--not because of his psychiatric problems, but because the nature of his crimes indicated he was too criminally dangerous to be granted bail. And, while incarcerated, awaiting trial, mental health services are provided within the jail or in a forensic psychiatric unit, where "monitoring" of the person's behavior is done by correction officers.

Zimmerman's criminal charges were not heinous enough to warrant completely denying him bail, but the nature of those charges was enough to require him to stay away from his girlfriend, and guns, and "monitoring" is done by the electronic device on his ankle.

Any psychiatric problems he might have while on bail, which might get him into further difficulty, or possibility cause him to harm others or himself, are his responsibility to address--or they should be addressed by his family or lawyer. As far as the state is concerned he is only a criminal defendant, who has been accused of certain crimes, and who has been granted bail with certain conditions.

You don't know anything about the criminal justice system and how it handles emotionally disturbed or mentally ill criminal defendants, so you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Their primary function is only to address a defendant's alleged criminal behaviors, not his psychiatric problems.

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@BillRM,

You,

Quote:

I still find it very strange to cut out one tool that can be used to inflicted violence, as if anyone who could not get his or her hand on this one type of tool will just forget about their desire to do violence.

Our Constitution provides the rights of citizens to own guns. What's your problem? What any person does with those guns to harm others is the issue - including children killing other children or themselves.

Without guns, the homicide rates will be reduced dramatically, and will make our environment much safer.

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@firefly,

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Pre-trial Release
A defendant is presumed innocent until the prosecutor proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. At this stage in the process, the prosecutor has not proven anything and the defendant is supposed to be treated as an innocent person. Following this principle, Florida law gives the defendant the right to be released from jail prior to the trial. However, there is no right to pre-trial release in cases where the person is arrested for a “non-bondable” offense. To determine whether the defendant should be released, the judge may ask about the length of time that person has lived in the area, whether the defendant has a job, has family members living in the area, has a past criminal record or has been released on bond previously and appeared in court as required. The judge may release the defendant on his own recognizance, on monetary bond (either cash or surety bond through a bail bondsman), on monitored release (electronic monitoring device or bracelet), to the custody of a responsible member of the community or to a drug program or mental health facility.

Quote:

Their primary function is only to address a defendant's alleged criminal behaviors, not his psychiatric problems.

more of your bullshit wordplay here, as the function of that state in this instance is their primary function as well as all other functions, for instance the protection of the public and helping those in need. for example the state is always obligated to offer assistance to those who are suffering from mental health or addiction issues and have thus gotten themselves into the justice system. sometimes the state presses the issue at the bail hearing, but not in this case.

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@hawkeye10,

It's not "bull ****." Unless the defense brings up the issue of mental deficiency, the only issue addressed by the court is the innocence or charge of "crime" that's being deliberated in court.

Where did you study law?

Quote:

Yamiche Alcindor, USA TODAY 9:04 a.m. EDT July 13, 2013
George Zimmerman - a killer or a man who fought for his life? The jury has the final word in the Trayvon Martin case and must consider scant evidence and inconclusive testimony

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

It's not "bull ****." Unless the defense brings up the issue of mental deficiency, the only issue addressed by the court is the innocence or charge of "crime" that's being deliberated in court.

dade county in florida does not agree with you. a link to my earlier quote

http://www.pdmiami.com/when_will_i_get_out_of_jail.htm

Quote:

Welcome to our office website.
My name is Carlos J. Martinez,
your elected Public Defender for Miami-Dade County.

The Public Defender is appointed by judges to represent clients in criminal, juvenile and mental health matters in Florida's courts. Miami-Dade County is the 11th judicial circuit of Florida, the largest and busiest of Florida’s 20 judicial circuits. We are responsible for defending individuals who face the loss of their liberty and are determined by the court to be unable to pay for a private attorney.

On our site, you will find information about the criminal justice system, our responsibilities, qualifications and experience, as well as the innovative and cost-effective programs that we have instituted

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

nless the defense brings up the issue of mental deficiency, the only issue addressed by the court is the innocence or charge of "crime" that's being deliberated in court.

Hawkeye, just doesn't get it, C.I..

It's the defense that raises issues regarding mental illness or mental deficiency, generally as mitigating factors for the crime, and asking that the person be released to a drug program or a mental heath facility, as a condition of bail, is something the defense does, both as a bargaining chip to get bail, or lower bail, and because they see it as in their client's best interests.

The state is not interested in doing anything to help provide the defense with a psychiatric defense for their client. The state views the defendant only as a criminal, and their presumption is of criminal guilt, not innocence, because they have brought criminal charges they intend to prove.

Hawkeye doesn't know what he's talking about, which is why the articles he posts, allegedly in defense of his contentions, really don't address the issue under discussion.

And, now he doesn't seem to realize the Public Defender's office is the defense--the state, and prosecution, in a criminal proceeding is represented by the D.A.'s office.

And that web site from the PD's office that he linked to, says absolutely nothing about mental health issues, or domestic violence incidents that involve gun-related felonies

The kind of mental health issue a PD would get involved in would involve a defendant who has been found not guilty of a crime due to diminished capacity, or insanity, who has then been remanded to a forensic psych facility until they are deemed no longer dangerous to the community. When they apply for release from such a facility, if they can't afford a private lawyer, they would be assigned a PD to represent them in court at a dangerousness hearing.

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@cicerone imposter,

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Without guns, the homicide rates will be reduced dramatically, and will make our environment much safer.

Do you have a magic wand to removed all 300 millions plus firearms in the nation? Kind of like the theory of all the good things that would happen if we make alcohol illegal including a lower murder rate. The reverse seems to had happen if my memory serve me correctly.

CI how is the anti-guns laws working in Mexico where even having bullets is a serous crime?

Now if you take away our one hell of a problem with drug gangs violence and black on black teens killings each other related to drugs/war on drugs/poverty and so on our homicide rate would be in the same range as the UK and other EU nations , our suicide rate is half what it is in gun free Japan and similar to somewhat less to nations such as France who have far less firearms.

With far more firearms then ever before in our society our overall homicide rate is at a fifty years low. So please show CI how as the number of firearms had increase the homicide rate had been dropping since the 1980s.

But what the hell if you keep repeating that it is the guns over and over that drive our homicide rate maybe you can made someone take it at face value.

Sadly as you ran around on a anti-gun campaign the steps that have a chance to reduce the homicide rates are not being done.

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@BillRM,

http://theoutloudblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/head-up-ass.jpg

1 Reply

The State of Florida vs George Zimmerman: The Trial

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