How can s.o. disappear completely and go underground without being found these days?

I do agree with that. The problem really isn't whether or not it's fair to call Snowden a "traitor." That all depends on what definition of the word we accept. The major problem isn't Snowden; it's the actions of the government. I'm not quite as sanguine as Frank in regards to just how benificent our government is. The US government has shown me absolutely no reasons whatever to trust either its actions or its intentions.

Quote:

Those are my thoughts as well, and I'm not sure this can be rationalized. If he had been a citizen of China and working in Chinese intelligence I have no doubt how he would be regarded in his own country.

to date he has spilled no secrets, he as repeated conventional wisdom.

Quote:

What Snowden deserves is a fair trial. And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

based upon evidence it appears that the American "justice" system is not up to much of any job other than abusing the American people at the hands of the state.

Frank Apisa wrote:

What Snowden deserves is a fair trial. And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

that's a dangerous assumption to make

In 2003, George W. Bush asked Chretien for Canada’s support in the upcoming invasion of Iraq. Shockingly, Chretien said no. That Chretien would so publicly reject Canada’s pimp and protector was as much a shock to the US as it was a point of pride for Canadians. Chretien’s reasoning was sound: he wanted proof that Saddam Hussein was building WMDs before he’d support the war. But that’s not the best part, when answering questions to the press about what would be acceptable proof, he delivered quite the insight:“A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It’s a proof! A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it’s because its proven.”

I don't know how any American can be comfortable with what has been revealed about their government over the past decade.

Frank Apisa wrote:

What Snowden deserves is a fair trial. And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

that's a dangerous assumption to make

Lots and lots of Americans have been saying, "Keep us safe...or as safe as you can...no matter what you have to do."

I definitely see why JTT uses the term sheeple when I read posts like that.

I don't view all U.S. residents as sheeple, but that type of post runs against everything I grew up thinking about people who lived in the U.S.

Quote:

Lots and lots of Americans have been saying, "Keep us safe...or as safe as you can...no matter what you have to do."

Safe from what? From car accidents? From random shootings in schools and movie theatres? From global warming?

Nope. None of these are worthy of much government intervention, apparently. But terrorism requires all privacy to be stripped naked... Go figure.

OBL has won, Frank. He got you and others so terrorized you're ready for Big Brother, and right NOW, please!

says Frank Apisa: "The bully is not going to pick on me so what do I care?"

I don't think Hongkong/China to be the best idea, but it might work.
For a couple of weeks.

We must agree to be governed...or all we will have is chaos.

If the people we elect to govern us decide some things must be kept secret...they have that right. We cannot allow every file-clerk who decides the government is doing something wrong to just throw open the doors.

If we insist that our individual right to privacy is so sacred that we cannot do the kinds of intrustions necessary to keep the devil at bay...we are going to lose the rights by invasion. The people determined to destroy us will NEVER give up...and they are not interested in niceties like "individual rights to privacy."

nd it was not long before American agents kidnapped him and he spent two more years imprisoned in LA.

Ecuador says Snowden raises 'freedom of expression' issue
(AFP) – 24 minutes ago

HANOI — Ecuador's foreign minister on Monday said protection for fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden was an issue of "freedom of expression" as his government analyses a request for asylum by the whistleblower.
Snowden, a former National Security Agency (NSA) contractor, is in Russia after arriving Sunday from Hong Kong, hoping to win asylum in Ecuador and evade arrest after leaking sensational details of secret US surveillance programmes of Internet and phone data.

He has infuriated and embarrassed Washington with a series of leaks that have strained diplomatic ties between the US and countries that have failed to extradite him despite a warrant by American authorities.

"We will make a decision... we are analysing it," Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino told reporters through a translator in Hanoi of the asylum request by Snowden.
"It (the request) has to do with freedom of expression and the security of citizens around the world," he added.
"We always act by principle not in our own interest. There are some governments who act more on their own interests, we do not."

The 30-year-old IT contractor was expected to head to Ecuador via Cuba and AFP correspondents at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport saw an Ecuadoran flagged diplomatic car at VIP arrivals.
"We know he is in Moscow, we're in talks with higher authorities," Patino, who is on an official visit to communist Vietnam, said.
The South American country, led by outspoken leftist President Rafael Correa, has been sheltering WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who is wanted by Sweden, at its London embassy for the past year.

US authorities have been left red-faced by Snowden's revelations of intelligence trawling by the NSA of phone call logs and Internet data, prompting concern from governments around the world and outrage from privacy campaigners.
Snowden made the revelations from Hong Kong which allowed him to travel to Moscow, a decision described as "troubling" by US authorities who have laid charges including of theft and espionage against the whistleblower, revoked his passport and sought his extradition.

Russian officials said Snowden could still potentially make it to Ecuador without a valid US passport.

"If he has asked for asylum in Ecuador then they could give him a refugee document or even Ecuadoran citizenship allowing him to continue his journey," a security source told Interfax.

...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juFxxYI2939XjhCr4La-ypzSM-gw?docId=CNG.083c6f49d45308df3a6fc7d8a720e4f3.4e1

How can s.o. disappear completely and go underground without being found these days?

Whistleblower Snowden escapes arrest in Hong Kong thanks to US errors
Edward Snowden heads for Ecuador after flight to Russia leaves authorities in various countries amazed and infuriated

Tania Branigan in Hong Kong, Miriam Elder in Moscow and Nick Hopkins
The Guardian, Sunday 23 June 2013 19.05 BST

...

The 30-year-old had not been stopped on his way to Chek Lap Kok airport, and was allowed to slip away on a hot and humid morning, despite American demands that he be arrested and extradited to face trial for espionage offences.

The reason?

The Americans had mucked up the legal paperwork, the authorities claimed in a statement released at 4.05pm local time.

Hong Kong had no choice but to let the 30-year-old leave for "a third country through a lawful and normal channel".

...

It was choreographed with the help of WikiLeaks, whose legal director is Baltasar Garzón, the former Spanish judge who enraged the British government by issuing an international warrant for the arrest in the UK of former Chilean president General Augusto Pinochet. "The WikiLeaks legal team and I are interested in preserving Mr Snowden's rights and protecting him as a person," Garzón said.

...

But on Capitol Hill there was undisguised fury, particularly when it emerged that Snowden appeared to be intending to leave Moscow for Cuba, and then possibly Venezuela or Ecuador.

"Every one of those nations is hostile to the United States," fumed Mike Rogers, chair of the House intelligence committee. "The US government must exhaust all legal options to get him back. When you think about what he says he wants and what his actions are, it defies logic."

Democrat senator Charles Schumer said Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, "always seems almost eager to stick a finger in the eye of the United States, whether it is Syria, Iran and now, of course, with Snowden".

General Keith Alexander, director of the NSA, was withering too. "[Snowden] is clearly an individual who's betrayed the trust and confidence we had in him. This is an individual who is not acting, in my opinion, with noble intent."

Ain't the usual hypocrisy of the US stunning in its breadth and oh, the chutzpah!

...

The official Xinhua news agency said the revelations had "put Washington in a really awkward situation. Washington should come clean about its record first. The United States, which has long been trying to play innocent as a victim of cyber attacks, has turned out to be the biggest villain in our age."

See what I mean.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/23/edward-snowden-gchq