How can s.o. disappear completely and go underground without being found these days?

@Finn dAbuzz,

That's true, of course. I have to agree with you that Hong Kong was not the best choice he could have made. It was probably a spur of the moment decision. I believe the guy suffers from some form of epilepsy, btw, which can influence decision-making modes.

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@roger,

Quote:

Doesn't this imply his intent was to damage the US, though? I'm not so sure it was.

Roger, your guess is as good as any. Mr. Snowden is a complicated individual. It's almost as if he's housing a personal spiteful grudge against the US. Why would he throw away his life like this? If he felt so strongly why didn't he talk to someone higher up whom he felt he could trust? I am one of those angry Americans that he chose this leaking route.

Snowden realizes the damage he's done to the US image, saying the US was spying on China when the US was going after China for their spying on the US. It certainly put Obama in an embarrassing position especially during the Chinese leader's visit here at the time the story broke. The fact that Snowden sought to protect himself if his position became untenable might indicate a hidden motive.

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@Moment-in-Time,

I've been reading a lot about this and changing my mind back and forth, but am mostly not unhappy with Snowden. I'm not memorizing all this stuff so no link, but I saw somewhere he was fine with facing justice (also read he talked to the Iceland ambassador to Hong Kong - or was it China). Read he hopes to take it to court in Hong Kong.

Even the New Yorker writers are arguing with each other about it all (to start with, Cassidy and Toobin).

A friend today mentioned a concern about all the hired contractors on this stuff, which brings to mind how we've handled some of our recent wars. I agree on that concern.

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

A friend today mentioned a concern about all the hired contractors on this stuff, which brings to mind how we've handled some of our recent wars. I agree on that concern.

Yes, Snowden was a low-level contractor with very limited clearance. If he knows what he knows, thousands of people know. Thousands of dunces with access to your emails and mine... and commercial, industrial & diplomatic secrets a-plenty, which the Chinese will now get for nothing.

US spook community = lazy overpaid prying paranoid DICKHEADS !!!

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@Walter Hinteler,

The extraterrestrials do it all the time.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I've been reading a lot about this and changing my mind back and forth, but am mostly not unhappy with Snowden.

That's understandable as there are two schools of thought on Snowden.

ossobuco wrote;

Quote:

I'm not memorizing all this stuff so no link, but I saw somewhere he was fine with facing justice (also read he talked to the Iceland ambassador to Hong Kong - or was it China). Read he hopes to take it to court in Hong Kong.

I've also heard he would like his day in court in the US. So why is he hiding out in Hong Kong, making it difficult to get a hold of. I'm most curious as to what motivated this man because he does not come across as altruistic but someone with a pet peeve against the US. Of course I may be 100% wrong and he is doing it for the good of Americans.....but openly revealing secrets that the US is spying on other nationalities is not the way to go in my world....to me that's a traitor.

ossobuco write:

Quote:

Even the New Yorker writers are arguing with each other about it all (to start with, Cassidy and Toobin).

As I said previously there are arguably more than one opinion regarding Snowden's behavior. Some do not think he did anything wrong and the American people should know what the government is doing with information about them; I'm of the opinion, if monitoring phone activities will help in any way intercept many planned attacks on Americans, then I'm all for it....let the government do what it think it should do.

Although I'm sure terrorists with plans to attack America are aware US eyes are on their activities but did Snowden have to draw them a blueprint of what the US is doing?!

ossobuco wrote

Quote:

A friend today mentioned a concern about all the hired contractors on this stuff, which brings to mind how we've handled some of our recent wars. I agree on that concern.

Ah! your above statement regarding contractors is exceedingly interesting. Contractors cut corners. How else could a dropout with limited formal education like Snowden have been hired by professionals in the US Federal government? Snowden fell through the cracks for him to be able to get as much classified information as he "claims" he did.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

roger wrote:

Doesn't this imply his intent was to damage the US, though? I'm not so sure it was.

I don't think it was either, roger. I don't consider Snowden a traitor in any sense of the word. He spoke truth to power and is now looking for sanctuary in a neutral country, e.g. Iceland. I can't see him accepting permanent asylum from the Chinese.

Andrew, I normally agree with you more than I disagree with you...but here I disagree in spades.

We must agree to be governed...or all we will have is chaos.

If the people we elect to govern us decide some things must be kept secret...they have that right. We cannot allow every file-clerk who decides the government is doing something wrong to just throw open the doors.

That simply cannot be allowed to happen.

Snowden may not be a traitor...but it certainly appears he did ILLEGAL things.

A jury should decide if he is a traitor...a criminal of some lesser degree...or absolutely not guilty.

A jury must do that.

What Snowden deserves is a fair trial. And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

Why?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

Why?

Because it is the system now in place.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Because it is the system now in place.

So if the system in place was Big Brother style dictatorship, you'd accept it?

Well, in actual fact, it seems to me the entire nation has no problem going far far out in that direction... Rather than debate whether Snowden is a traitor, shouldn't you guys wonder whether it's fine and mellow that every single phone call, every single email, can be monitored by the state?

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@Olivier5,

I do agree with that. The problem really isn't whether or not it's fair to call Snowden a "traitor." That all depends on what definition of the word we accept. The major problem isn't Snowden; it's the actions of the government. I'm not quite as sanguine as Frank in regards to just how benificent our government is. The US government has shown me absolutely no reasons whatever to trust either its actions or its intentions.

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A little interlude of a sort of levity:

http://www.newyorker.com/images/2013/06/17/p465/130617_daily-cartoon-friday_p465.jpg

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@Moment-in-Time,

Moment-in-Time wrote:

I've also heard he would like his day in court in the US. So why is he hiding out in Hong Kong, making it difficult to get a hold of. I'm most curious as to what motivated this man because he does not come across as altruistic but someone with a pet peeve against the US. Of course I may be 100% wrong and he is doing it for the good of Americans.....but openly revealing secrets that the US is spying on other nationalities is not the way to go in my world....to me that's a traitor.

Those are my thoughts as well, and I'm not sure this can be rationalized. If he had been a citizen of China and working in Chinese intelligence I have no doubt how he would be regarded in his own country.

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@roger,

Quote:

Those are my thoughts as well, and I'm not sure this can be rationalized. If he had been a citizen of China and working in Chinese intelligence I have no doubt how he would be regarded in his own country.

to date he has spilled no secrets, he as repeated conventional wisdom.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

What Snowden deserves is a fair trial. And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

based upon evidence it appears that the American "justice" system is not up to much of any job other than abusing the American people at the hands of the state.

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@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

The major problem isn't Snowden; it's the actions of the government.

Exactly, but funningly enough, the US press seems to focus on shooting the messager rather than hearing the message... Another "stained blue dress" moment, I guess.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

What Snowden deserves is a fair trial. And Americans have to assume that our system is up to that job.

that's a dangerous assumption to make

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@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

The major problem isn't Snowden; it's the actions of the government.

That's definitely what I think Americans should be getting upset about - if they're going to be upset about anything in this situation.

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@ehBeth,

David Cornwell about some of these matters -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/14/spies-influence-john-le-carre

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Because it is the system now in place.

So if the system in place was Big Brother style dictatorship, you'd accept it?

Well, in actual fact, it seems to me the entire nation has no problem going far far out in that direction... Rather than debate whether Snowden is a traitor, shouldn't you guys wonder whether it's fine and mellow that every single phone call, every single email, can be monitored by the state?

Actually, Olivier, as I have said several times in several posts...if this experiment in democracy is really going to work...it probably will take a form closer to Orwell's Big Brother than most people feel comfortable contemplating.

The only way democracy works is for people to voluntarily give up lots of their personal rights of privacy in the interests of society as a whole.

I understand how unpopular that notion is...especially to Americans...but it is so.

If we insist that our individual right to privacy is so sacred that we cannot do the kinds of intrustions necessary to keep the devil at bay...we are going to lose the rights by invasion. The people determined to destroy us will NEVER give up...and they are not interested in niceties like "individual rights to privacy."

It may seem there is no difference...and perhaps there isn't in some sense. But in others, there is a huge difference.

My advice to the people fighting these moves: Keep on fighting. You may win.

Should be interesting to see what you win.

But insofar as I have a vote: My vote is that my individual privacy is not all that important. Occasionally I have stains in my shorts; I sometimes visit porn sites (helps the yang for us older guys); I get testy in some of my on-line posts. I speak only for me...but I do not give a damn if my communications are being monitored.

For the people who do...keep fighting it. Like I said...you may win.

1 Reply

How can s.o. disappear completely and go underground without being found these days?

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