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What was the main reason that Germany lost w.w.2?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:14 am
@Setanta,
The one, which was nearly finished (as well as the planned others) were built in the Baltic Sea ...

http://api.ning.com/files/CO3CMJDNWcj5pLtyxmn5hptxhcwnacOVQAmyuMgBLUAWbeRVw3xBb-V88zYU3NCSg1zGivyZiQ-xhsA42QP-dNBT6TFEY*i*/GrafZeppelin1.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4278/bundesarchivbildgrafzep.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-B0676%2C_Flugzeugtr%C3%A4ger_%22Graf_Zeppelin%22.jpg
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:32 am
As someone above pointed out before i did, had the Germans disrupted their entire production system to produce more submarines, the Allies simply would have concentrated more resources on ASW (anti-submarine warfare). That the RN was able to concentrate massive force when needed is amply demonstrated by the destruction of Bismarck. The thought of the Kriegsmarine resorting to carriers is ludicrous. Graf Zeppelin was laid down in 1936, and never completed due to shifting production priorities--it saw no combat service in the war. For the Kriegsmarine to have produced 300 submarines by the beginning of the war, and leaving aside the disruption of all other German war production, they would have needed to begin building new shipyards and diverting resources to such a program in 1935 or 1936. Of course, they didn't. It is that reality which beggars silly historical "what ifs." Hitler, like Napoleon before him, really didn't understand naval power and didn't use the resources he did have effectively. Which takes us back to the real reason that Germany lost the war--Hitler was a f*cking idiot.

As it was, the German submarine command had an evolutionary effect on ASW. The Brits came up with ASDIC, and the Americans later developed SONAR, which doomed Germany's submarine arm. Walter mentioned other developments like Leigh lights--both the RN and the USN took the ASW mission very seriously, and dealt with it effectively.

The RN actually wasn't that good in World War II--but they were more than a match for Germany. The second largest navy in the world in 1941, they were about third best. Japan's fast battleships were superior to anything the RN had or produced during the war. The Americans were even better. In his monumental six volume history of the war, Churchill compares USS North Carolina to HMS King George V, and the comparison is not flattering the the RN's new class of battleships. Japanese heavy cruisers were superior to anything anyone else had, including the United States. Japanese light cruisers were an ugly joke for anyone who had to serve on them. The Japanese Kagero class destroyers were superior to any other navy's dstroyers when they began to come into service in 1941. The RN's destroyers were an ugly joke for anyone who had to serve on them, but they were adequate to deal with German submarines. The American "flash deck" destroyers pretty much sucked, too, but they were already improving their designs. Understanding the limitations of their available ships, the USN concentrated their flash deck destroyers in the Atlantic, where they, too, were adequate to deal with German submarines.

Graf Zeppelin had a capacity for about 40 aircraft. RN carriers were just as poor. Despite Gunga Dim's display of ignorance, it's not the weight of aircraft or munitions which determine the capacity of an air craft carrier, but the available hanger space. The RN's carriers were just not even close to the air power of Japanese and American carriers. Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu and Soryu were 1920s designs, and still had a much larger capacity than RN carriers and Graf Zeppelin--60 to 70 aircraft, exclusive of scout planes (of which the Japanese had the best carrier-launch scouts in the world). Shokaku, already in service in 1941, and her sister ship Zuikaku, launched in time for the Hawii attack (it was Zuikaku's maiden voyage) had even better capacity--70 to 80 aircraft.

But even the American 1920s era "battle" class of carriers had a greater aircraft capacity. Lexintgon, Saratoga and Yorktown all had capacities of 80-100 aircraft, and the Essex class was even more impressive, some of them carrying 120 aircraft. (Some confusion may arise as both Lexington and Yorktown were lost in the early days of the war, and new Essex class carriers bearing the same names were built and commissioned.) The Essex class carriers were the largest body of capital ships in any navy during the war, with 24 of them eventually being commissioned. Many of them continued in service into the 1960s and some of them into the 1970s.

At some point, the RN realized that their fleet air arm sucked, although i can't say if they ever acknowledged it publicly. But they more than made up for it after the war with three innovations which altered carriers in all navies for ever after. Those were the landing light displays, which dramatically improved landings, especially in bad weather and at night; the steam-powered catapult, which allowed much heavier aircraft to reach take-off speed in a short distance; and most dramatic of all, the inclusion in carrier design of diagonal flight decks. Using the steam catapult, heavy aircraft could be launched from the traditional parallel deck, and they could be recovered on the diagonal flight deck. Although they would never catch up with the USN, the RN made a very respectable showing after the war, and the USN were not so pig-headed that they could not see what the improvements represented for fleet air arms, and they immediate adopted them.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Cool, Walter . . . thanks.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I suspect that Gunga Dim, like author of this thread, thinks the Nazis were really cool, especially the uniforms and the tanks and planes. There is no rational basis to suggest that Germany could ever have won that war.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 05:37 am
@Setanta,
Cool, indeed - thanks to the internet. (When I heard [naval] history at the navy's college and later at university, I had to find those sources, order the books or copies ... wait for weeks ... Wink )
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 09:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I know the feeling, Walter. I did a paper on the first battle of Balaclava in university, about 45 years ago--the particular focus was how it all went wrong so that the Light Brigade attacked the wrong position and got eaten up. It took me about four weeks with varying amounts of time--some days i didn't touch it, some days i went to library and found what i wanted right away and was done in an hour. And some days, many days, i spent six, eight, ten hours in the card catalog and the stacks, only to come up with very little at all.

I was thinking about this last night, and this morning i found all the information i needed online in less than an hour, and while playing Farmville on behalf of The Girl.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 02:02 pm
Germany overestimated their own capabilities and underestimated the allies, that in a nutshell is why they lost the war.
count markovalley
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 03:29 pm
@mysteryman,
basically ,there's some truth here. but the germans were not stupid. why didn't they understand this? the gamble was that england and france wouldn't help poland over danzig . it didn't make sense that they would.
prior to sudeten crisis, germany had the moral highground in so far as danzig and upper silesia were concerned. most thought that germany's claims were justified ;and were willing to return back to germany land swiped at versailles.
but after sudeten things changed quickly. after krystalnacht all the world media came out against deutchland. after that, it was just a big set up.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 03:54 pm
@count markovalley,
If the Germans had only to face the European nations, they might have been able to establish some sort of peace that allowed them to keep what they had taken (but that is doubtful).

Germany was an ally of Japan, and I remember reading some years ago that Germany was not happy with Japan after Dec.7
Germany did not want to have to fight the US as well as the European countries.

So while Germany MIGHT, and I stress MIGHT, have been able to forge some sort of peace with England and France, when they invaded Russia and then declared war on the US, their fate was sealed.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:00 pm
@count markovalley,
The pair of you are indulging in anthropomorphic claptrap. Neither "Germany" nor "the World" were unified entities with the conscious motives of individuals. Germany lost the war because the bulk of its population followed a madman surrounded by sycophants bent on racial domination. The Allies were led by men who understood that tyrants like Hitler had to be stopped and were successful in motivating their populations accordingly. Once the Allies got their war efforts together, their superior numbers and materiel made the end inevitable yet with needless suffering on both sides despite failed attempts on Hitlers life from within.
0 Replies
 
count markovalley
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:04 pm
@mysteryman,
Germany not happy with japan,not true..
no peace in europe with churchill./fdr alliance . germany WAS fighting U.S before dec.7
Invasion of ussr was a matter of NO CHOICE. war with us ;Ditto!!
Fate was sealed with lend/lease!!
count markovalley
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:05 pm
@count markovalley,
that is All tyrants other that Joe Stalin! et.al.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:08 pm
@count markovalley,
Tea.

Germans preference for tea with milk and sugar is the main reason that Germany lost the Second World War.

Yup. Tea. It's what makes or breaks a country.
count markovalley
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:09 pm
@ehBeth,
who broke you?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:17 pm
@count markovalley,
<snicker>
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:18 pm
@count markovalley,
I'm a good tea-loving German.

<snicker>

With milk and sugar.

That's how we do it when we can't find any blueberry- or peach-flavoured tea.

count markovalley
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:32 pm
@ehBeth,
well then get in step.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 04:49 pm
@count markovalley,
I love it when they bring in a new comedian.

Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 25 Jun, 2013 02:59 am
@ehBeth,
This new comedian is a hard-working clown, too.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Jun, 2013 03:04 am
@Setanta,
... but wouldn't get an engagement - even not in a small travelling circus!
 

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