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Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:00 pm
@Thomas,
I agree too: we will never be 100% sure that Thales, Jesus, Socrates, Hillel, Shammai, Calamity Jane and scores of other dudes mentioned in the literature actually existed. Things could always have happened otherwise than written in the documents we have... Witnesses can lie, documents can lie, etc. Nobody can be forced to believe a source.

However, the evidence we have point to their existence, which is accepted by all modern historians without exception.

That's good enough for me. If you want perfect certainty, I'd said as a Venetian courtesan once retorted to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who was complaining about the imperfect shape of her left nipple: Zanetto, lascia le donne e studia la matematica.

For only in mathematics can you reach perfect certainty.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:16 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I agree too: we will never be 100% sure

I didn't say I expect 100%, and I don't. I said I expect 50.000001%. That's what "preponderance of the evidence" means.

Olivier5 wrote:
that Thales, Jesus, Socrates, Hillel, Shammai, Calamity Jane and scores of other dudes mentioned in the literature actually existed.

For most of these persons, we have enough evidence to get us to 50,0000001%. I don't think we have it for Jesus.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:25 pm
@Olivier5,
None of the other names had everything we know about them tied into the writings of a religion cult that claimed all kinds of supernatural powers and being one third of the god head on top of that.

Those that had written about Thales, Jesus, Socrates etc never claimed that one of them brought back to life a rotting corpse and for that they have one hell of a lot more overall creditable then the writings of a religion cult who writings is full of this nonsense.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:25 pm
@Thomas,
You're entitled to your opinions, Tom. As for how you compute your probabilities, well... That's balloony.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:27 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Seems both sides of this controversy would do well to simply acknowledge that we do not know for sure if a single person is the Biblical character known as Jesus

Oh my dog, I agree with Frank Apisa! Surely the apocalypse must be nigh!


Stranger things have happened! (I think.)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Like someone calling you "Tom" for the first time in all the years I've known you in person and in cyber space!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:35 pm
@Olivier5,
So is Thomas a Holocaust denier too?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:41 pm
@joefromchicago,
I didn' respond to your point about hearsay yet.

joefromchicago wrote:
Not all hearsay evidence is inadmissible in court. Indeed, there are a number of well-recognized exceptions to the hearsay rule that let in quite a lot of hearsay testimony.

What I had said was:
Thomas wrote:
No court of law would accept hearsay as evidence, with narrow exceptions that wouldn't apply here.

I don't think we're that far apart on this one.

joefromchicago wrote:
The key is whether or not the statement being reported second-hand has the requisite indicia of reliability that would allow the finder of fact to say "I know that the statement is hearsay, but it is of a kind or was made under such circumstances that persuade me that it can be relied upon for its truthfulness."

In your opinion, which sources pertaining to the existence of Jesus would meet this standard in the eyes of a judicial fact-finder? And in your opinion, are there any sources that wouldn't pass muster for a judicial fact-finder, but should pass muster for a historian?
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:44 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Historians are not entitled to claim that they know something when they don't. If their only source for some event is an unreliable source, then they don't know, and the proper response is to be forthright about it. To say "oh well, let's settle for unreliable sources then", is not the proper response --- not for a historian, not for any honest intellectual


If what you say really applies to current historians, then dishonesty abounds. Not all historians are honest.

A common example if the Egyptian ancient chronology, which is based on the words of Manetho, the Egyptian historian and priest.

Later research pointed out a 500 years mistake in that chronology, where Ramses II wasn't born until 5 centuries after the Exodus, and that the Iliad and Odyssey were written by Homer itself, not so by "someone else" five hundred years later.

A pharaoh's tomb was uncovered and vases and ceramic that belongs to a five hundred years old style were found, and historians explained it as "looting of old tombs to use the vases for the funeral of the recent dead pharaoh".

We are witness of dishonesty, with the purpose to cover up their established chronological mistake.

Another example is the walls of Babylon, where between the cows and horses figures, the image of a weird species is also observed in the walls. The historians assumed it as a legendary representation of something. Perhaps the imaginary dragon, very common in ancient cultures.

But, that species indeed existed, because its fossils were found later on, but, even with the evidence at front, historians do not accept that such a species lived in an era where the walls of Babylon were built. This denial might be in order to support the evolution theory, which assumes this species as existing millions of years ago.

The difference between a case in civil court and the work of historians is that historians are not subjected to any law. The same applies to biologists, physicists, and others with their own theories.

There is a "freedom of speech" and they can theorize anything and designate between themselves their own authorities, who will side up to any interpretation that is approved according to their convenience.

No wonder, then, that even with evidence at hand, some historians prefer to deny the existence of Jesus two thousand years ago, in order to please someone or something else. There is no way to stop their doings, freedom of speech must be respected.

So, in this topic about Jesus existence there won't be any final verdict like in a civil court case, but a continued disagreement, like between lions and hyenas in the peaceful savannah.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:47 pm
@edgarblythe,
Thomas is a person with insufficient historical knowledge to even understand how these considerations are made. He's applying the wrong truth criteria for the wrong issue. He nevertheless chose to ride, like many atheists do, on the issue of the historicity of Jesus without seriously informing himself about it. Unfortunately for him, that issue is a non-issue, a cannard, since all qualified scientists agree the dude existed.

Now we will see if Thomas is of the wood that a true hyper-critic is made of.

Will he accept as a fact that scientists have come to this conclusion, or will he try (like Timur and Setanta did) to lie about what scientists say?

Will he change the goalpost constantly, or will he stick to one simple and clear conclusion?

Will he keep ignoring the evidence, like you have done, or will he recognise that such evidence does exist but that he happens not to trust it, and explain why?

Will he posts links to crappy misleading anti-science sites, or will he try to find this elusive ONE SINGLE LIVE SCHOLAR who actually doubts Jesus' historicity?

Suspense suspense....
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 01:57 pm
@Olivier5,
Edgar asked you a yes-or no question. Do you intend to answer it, or are you just using it as a jumping-off point for innuendo and rhetorical questions?
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 02:04 pm
@Thomas,
His question was dishonest. I don't know if you are a Holocaust denier or not, nor did I ever imply you were. That's not the point. The point is that there are similarities in the ways all deniers behave and think.

What I am pointing at is the lack of intellectual honesty in my contradictors. You can chose to be better than them.
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 02:06 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I'll tell you exactly what I have told the Jesus deniers: As far as I am concerned, you are entitled to your opinion, but I won't let you peddle lies about what the scientific consensus is.

If you can point to ONE QUALIFIED ALIVE SCIENTIST who doubts the Holocaust, do so. But you can't, just like the Jesus deniers can't, because there is no such person.

STOP LYING ABOUT WHAT SCIENTISTS SAY !!!


Excuse me, but pardon me.

Who has designated those "qualified scientists"?

I proposed the best of the best, which is to put scientists con and scientists pro holocaust working together analyzing the samples of the walls of those assumed gas chambers.

This is the most fair solution to the controversy. Whatever the out coming is, both parts must accept it.

Simple.

Apparently holocaust supporters are afraid of my proposal, and I don't understand why so.

The Pope allowed the Carbon 14 test on the Turin Shroud, and the results showed a Medieval era data. See?

This is science at work, because defenders of Catholicism were involved in the investigation as well.

I want scientific proof by impartial sources, and until that is not given, I do have the right to doubt.

In the case of Jesus, the Tractate Sanhedrin 43a is enough to understand that this man existed. This source is trustable.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 02:15 pm
@carloslebaron,
There is no historian specialised in WW2 who subscribe to the holocaust negationist thesis. None. Only buffoons like you.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 02:43 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Historians are not entitled to claim that they know something when they don't. If their only source for some event is an unreliable source, then they don't know, and the proper response is to be forthright about it. To say "oh well, let's settle for unreliable sources then", is not the proper response --- not for a historian, not for any honest intellectual.

I agree that a historian is not entitled to say "I know what happened" when the best she can do is say "I think this is what happened." But your standard is far too stringent. For you, if a historian can't say "I know what happened," then the only alternative is "I don't know what happened." That's demanding too much.

For instance, we have no first-hand accounts of Alexander the Great. The first account of his life that we have was written more than two centuries after his death (which is more time than elapsed before the appearance of the first account of Jesus's life). All of our knowledge of Alexander, therefore, is second-hand. It is, in other words, hearsay. Would you conclude, therefore, that we don't know anything about Alexander the Great?

Thomas wrote:
In my opinon, if a piece of evidence would be inadmissible in a civil suit, it is very likely inappropriate for establishing historical narratives, too. I have formed this opinion from the assumption that the legal rules of evidence make sense for the respective standards of proof that the evidence needs to meet in a particular case. After all, these rules are tested far more often, and with far higher stakes, than the 'rules of evidence' historians follow informally. In dealing with evidence, then, I trust the rules of the legal system more than I trust the rules of the historical profession.

Really? Have you looked at the exceptions to the hearsay rule? Some of them are faintly comical. More importantly, the hearsay rule is designed not only to keep out evidence that has proven unreliable, but to encourage parties to call witnesses or present evidence that avoids the hearsay problem. The historian, however, cannot institute a rule that encourages the past to produce better evidence. For the historian, the evidence is what it is -- it ain't gonna' get any better, no matter how much you cajole it. In other words, for the judge, the hearsay rule provides both a carrot and a stick. For the historian, though, such a rule would be all stick.

Thomas wrote:
Now, the standard of proof that historians seek to meet --- or that I expect them to meet --- is preponderance of the evidence: Is a given claim about history more likely than not to be true, given the available evidence? As I said, I believe that judicial rules of evidence are well-adapted to the standard of proof that the evidence needs to establish. Therefore, it makes sense to me to evaluate historical evidence by the same rules a judge would use to evaluate evidence in a civil suit.

Well, you're confusing the standard of proof with a rule of evidence. They're not the same things. I agree that historians should abide by a "more likely than not" standard, but that doesn't require the historian to ignore hearsay evidence. After all, as Lionel Hutz once observed, hearsay evidence is a kind of evidence.

Thomas wrote:
Maybe this is me being dense, but I don't see how this approach differs materially from what a judge in a civil case would do.

The difference is that a judge is judging while a historian is being a historian.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 02:56 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
no first-hand accounts of Alexander the Great. The first account of his life that we have was written more than two centuries after his death (


I will need to google it but I am under the impression that the man had someone along during his military campaigns that records all the details for the people back home.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 03:03 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
The key is whether or not the statement being reported second-hand has the requisite indicia of reliability that would allow the finder of fact to say "I know that the statement is hearsay, but it is of a kind or was made under such circumstances that persuade me that it can be relied upon for its truthfulness."

In your opinion, which sources pertaining to the existence of Jesus would meet this standard in the eyes of a judicial fact-finder?

I really have no clue. I don't know anything about the sources for Jesus's life, and it's not a topic that interests me enough to learn more about them. For my own part, I'd say that a historical Jesus is more credible than a purely fictional Jesus, but that has more to do with logic and a knowledge of human nature than with historical evidence.

Thomas wrote:
And in your opinion, are there any sources that wouldn't pass muster for a judicial fact-finder, but should pass muster for a historian?

Quite a lot, actually. For instance, suppose I have a document - a letter that contains a description of a conversation between the letter writer and a friend. Ordinarily, a letter like that couldn't be admitted into evidence for the facts contained therein unless the author is in court to testify about it. In contrast, such documents are the things that historians deal with all the time, and there's usually no opportunity to cross-examine the authors of those documents.

Courts have to ensure fairness to the parties as part of the judicial process. The hearsay rule is part of that process. It is designed so that the parties have an equal chance to address the facts and confront the witnesses. Historians have neither that duty nor that luxury. They are bound only by their professional standards, and they deal with whatever evidence history has left behind.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 03:10 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#Legend

Legendary accounts surround the life of Alexander the Great, many deriving from his own lifetime, probably encouraged by Alexander himself.[223] His court historian Callisthenes portrayed the sea in Cilicia as drawing back from him in proskynesis. Writing shortly after Alexander's death, another participant,


Quote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callisthenes

Callisthenes of Olynthus ((/kəˈlɪsθəˌniːz/); Greek: Καλλισθένης; c. 360 – 328 BC) was a Greek historian. He was the son of Hero (niece of Aristotle), the daughter of Proxenus of Atarneus and Arimneste, which made him the great nephew of Aristotle by his sister Arimneste. They first met when Aristotle tutored Alexander the Great. Through his great-uncle's influence, he was later appointed to attend Alexander the Great on his Asiatic expedition as a professional historian.

allisthenes wrote an account of Alexander's expedition up to the time of his own execution, a history of Greece from the Peace of Antalcidas (387) to the Phocian war (357), a history of the Phocian war, and other works, all of which have perished. However, his account of Alexander's expedition was preserved long enough to be mined as a direct or indirect source for other histories that have survived. Polybius scolds Callisthenes for his poor descriptions of the battles of Alexander.[2]
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 03:18 pm
@joefromchicago,
Great stuff.

Another difference, it seems to me, between the courtroom and History, is that the historian has some sort of obligation to explain what happened, to come up with a credible story, whereas the judge only decides if Mr or Ms X can be considered guilty of a specific crime. The judge does NOT need to present a credible story about what happened. All he needs to say is: Mr X is guilty or not guilty...

This means that a historian claiming that Jesus never existed MUST come up with a credible rival hypothesis, some sort of idea of how Christianity came into being... At that is where they all failed so far. Whatever they have come up with failed to explain the facts, and was often far more improbable and bizarre than the rather lame and banal, not-particularly-unlikely hypothesis that a preacher called Yeshua or something like that wandered around in Galilee 2000 years ago, got killed by the Romans, and was later "legenderized" into some god.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2014 03:21 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
allisthenes wrote an account of Alexander's expedition up to the time of his own execution, a history of Greece from the Peace of Antalcidas (387) to the Phocian war (357), a history of the Phocian war, and other works, all of which have perished.

Like I said, we have no first-hand accounts of Alexander the Great. The first account of his life that we have was written more than two centuries after his death.
 

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