Did Jesus Actually Exist?

Likely I meant to say foment, but ferment works. Anybody that cared knew what I meant.

You never pinned down a flesh and blood man.

I made as powerful a case as I could, but for you and a few others here, this discussion is not about the evidence or the science of it. You couldn't care less if a real man once lived in Galilee and preached some of the stuff now attributed to him. What you care about is the polemic, the instrumental use of the argument that J. did not exist in your polemics with fundies. Your position has been hardened by years of debates with fundies here and elsewhere, and changing your position now would mean a major loss of face.

That's why you and none of your acolytes -- even Set who agrees with the thesis of a man called something like Yeshua who was a wandering preacher in Galilee 2000 years ago -- cannot say so openly and plainly, and cannot afford to pay attention to the facts I put forth. None of the doubters here has dared to touch the issue of the Talmudic anti-gospels, for instance. None. That's pretty amazing when you think of it. Not a pipe, not a mention whatsoever.

A shame really that you think you can go on and on closing your ears and whining "no proof no proof no proof", without even daring to acknowledge what arguments and facts are on the table, let alone address them, and without ever proposing a clear alternative theory. I thought only little children closed their ears like that... Very very puerile, and in your particular case, Ed, a huge disappointment. I thought you had more honesty and more courage than that, and I tried to engage you in a non-confrontational manner, only to be treated with contempt. I'll remember that.

You take that christian cult too seriously. They don't define Jesus for me.

Neither did Set, who agrees with my thesis, and yet you don't say that to him...

You have your version of Jesus: a fiction. Fundies have theirs: a god. I have mine too: a Jewish outcast, probably an illegitimate child, with plenty charm and wisdom but a rather poor leader and manager. Set has this idea of a wandering fool. Etc. etc. We all have our own version of Jesus. Our own personal gospel or anti-gospel, in a sense... And none of them can be 100% proven, not even yours.

This said, I totally agree with Set that the question of the existence of a real man at the onset of the Jesus legend is a no-brainer...

Mine is the one that has anything going for it. As Jung pointed out, humankind is a myth maker. They needed a new religion and their need created a sort of god. One that may be god or part of god or a creation of god . They can't seem to decide.

Once again, you great braying jackass, i don't agree with you. You are either too stupid or too dishonest to acknowledge the distinction i have made again and again. You're an idiot. Saying that i agree with you doesn't make it true, and it seems to be the only way you have to deal with being dismissed by me.

You must be losing it. You posts addressed to me are becoming more and more personal. You think I have hardened myself against other thinking. But that's because you only think you know what I am about. Believe me, if evidence ever is presented to me I am willing to alter any point of view I have now or have ever in the past held.

That is similar to saying that someone is taking Stephen King too seriously when it come to one of his characters.

As whether or not there was a religion leader of some kind in back of the stories of the Christians we will never know and nor does in matter as the fantasy and supernatural Jesus is all that matter in our history not some unimportant religion leader assuming there where such a person

Not at all, the Bible is not the only source of early Christian thought. What we would call established Christianity rejected far more than it accepted.

There's a lot more than one author.

Lord I did not state or imply that there was one author of this Jesus fantasy or that all of the fantasy was contained in the bible for that matter.

The writings was by the early christian cult as a whole and my analogy dealing with Mr. King have to do with being concern over some character he had in one of this books.

Even if Mr. King had loosely base a character on someone in real life you do not used his writings as a source of information on a real person anymore then trying to find a real person behind the christian cult fantasy concerning Jesus.

The analogy is not a good one, there's one Stephen King, and shed loads of Gospellers/Apostles, not to mention Paul and the oral tradition still present in the ME, some, but by no means all, of which have been transcribed by Sufi scholar Idries Shah.

It is a damn good analogy in my opinion as it was all story telling/myth making by people that never even claimed to had met a Jesus for the most part such as Paul within the christian cult.

The supernatural Jesus is about as real as any of the Greek or Rome gods and the writers of the Jesus myths was doing the same as the creators of any other god or demigods myths whether somewhere bury in the myths might had been a real human being or not.

It's a lousy analogy from someone who is unable to admit they're ever wrong. You've already made your mind up, and it's as based in dogma as the most hardened fundamentalists. Reason doesn't come into it.

We are not talking about the "supernatural Jesus", Bill.

The question is, "Did Jesus actually exist?"

No one says it has to be Jesus...and Jesus has to be able to rise from the dead...heal lepers...bring sight to the blind...or any of that other stuff.

We really do not know if a single person is at the front of the story of Jesus of the Bible.

Make up my mind in what regards as I never took the position that there for sure is not a real person somewhere bury in the myths it just that it is impossible to filter out the myths to find a real person assuming that there is a real person somewhere in the myths. My guess is that the odds are 50/50 but that all any of us can do is to guess in this matter.

Nor does such a possible real person matter as it is the supernatural myths that is all important in the history of the last two thousands years of Western culture.

An my position had there is no way to tell if there was a real man or men behind the supernatural myths and it does not matter as the important effects on Western cultures are the myths of a Jesus not some Jewish cult leader even if he had existed.

And an insistence on having the last word..... Should have mentioned that previously.

And you've done a volte face. There is nothing in your previous posts to indicate you think the physical existence of a Jesus is remotely possible.

LOL show me one post of mine that stated or imply that some Jewish cult leader might be a seed to all the Jesus myths????? Having in fact placed that likelihood at 50/50 from the beginning of this thread.

No I have not done an about face in that regard.

The only thing I consider impossible is the existence of a supernatural Jesus on this thread or on any other thread on this system.

Nor do I consider it is possible even if there is a "real" Jesus to find his teachings or any other facts about such a man bury in an ocean of myths.

President Jefferson was of the opinion that you could just removed the supernatural elements from the bible stories of "Jesus" and what is let happen to be "Jesus" teachings and life but in this regards I do not agree with him.

So your answer to the actual question is:

I do not know!

You shoulda just said that right out.

Anyway...great...finally we agree on something.