Did Jesus Actually Exist?

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
And you've done a volte face. There is nothing in your previous posts to indicate you think the physical existence of a Jesus is remotely possible.

LOL show me one post of mine that stated or imply that some Jewish cult leader might be a seed to all the Jesus myths????? Having in fact placed that likelihood at 50/50 from the beginning of this thread.

No I have not done an about face in that regard.

The only thing I consider impossible is the existence of a supernatural Jesus on this thread or on any other thread on this system.

Nor do I consider it is possible even if there is a "real" Jesus to find his teachings or any other facts about such a man bury in an ocean of myths.

President Jefferson was of the opinion that you could just removed the supernatural elements from the bible stories of "Jesus" and what is let happen to be "Jesus" teachings and life but in this regards I do not agree with him.

I guess it is necessary to remind everyone...you especially...that if there is a GOD...and if the GOD is able to do things humans cannot do and that human might even think impossible...

...that does not make the GOD "supernatural."

It means that a GOD that can do things humans cannot do...is a part of nature.

That is another thing you do not know, Bill. When you get to the point where you see that also...you will be in a much better place.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

do not know!

You shoulda just said that right out.

LOL I have over and over stated that I myself placed the likelihood of there being any seed of a real man behind the Jesus myths at 50/50 and that there is no way to proved such a man existence one way of another.

I do not know how one could be clearer then I had been on this thread and from the very first as a matter of fact.

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@Frank Apisa,

Look at the word supernatural closer. Being able ignite fire with your emotions certainly is super in nature.

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@BillRM,

If you don't consider the issue important, don't lose your time discussing it.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

If you don't consider the issue important, don't lose your time discussing it.

LOL...............

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@Setanta,

Yo Set, my brother in Yeshuah!

What distinction have you made that was not totally obvious to everyone here for months? In case you haven't got it yet, the subject of this thread NEVER EVER was whether God REALLY fucked with Mary to plant the seed in her belly, nor if a dude REALLY crossed the Sea of Galilee by foot or REALLY REALLY woke up a corpse. If those had been the issues, as you now lamely pretend, we would have been discussing them... And YOU would have discussed theses magic issues, rather than whether there are independent accounts of Jesus in Josephus...

You're just trying to change the goalpost now, nothing more It is a classic denial tactic, used systematically by climate change deniers and holocaust deniers. If you nail them on one fake claim of theirs, they pretend that's not the issue. Not saying that you're as bad and irresponsible as they are, mind you, just that the same tactics and mental processes are involved.

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@Olivier5,

Wait, Setanta believes in the Bible literally, Olive?

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@BillRM,

Only saying the obvious... You say it doesn't matter and then you get all agitated. Make up your mind.

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@One Eyed Mind,

No. Setanta is PRETENDING that the issue being discussed was:

- Did the son-of-god, miracle-makers and death victor Jesus actually exist?

This has NEVER been the issue as defined and discussed on this thread. The issue we have been discussing is this:

- Was there a real, non-magical man at the onset of the Jesus legend?

Setanta is just trying to move the goalpost because he lost the debate. Nothing else there.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
do not know!

You shoulda just said that right out.

LOL I have over and over stated that I myself placed the likelihood of there being any seed of a real man behind the Jesus myths at 50/50 and that there is no way to proved such a man existence one way of another.

50/50 huh?

Not 60/40 or anything like that?

Quote:

I do not know how one could be clearer then I had been on this thread and from the very first as a matter of fact.

Well let me suggest a way you could have been clearer, Bill.

You coulda said, "I do not know."

That would have been much clearer.

But those words do not come very easily to you, do they?

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@MWal,

MWal wrote:

Look at the word supernatural closer. Being able ignite fire with your emotions certainly is super in nature.

If there is a GOD...then a GOD is part of nature.

Live with it...or kid yourself that it is not so.

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@Olivier5,

Oh, yes. You mean the distinction between Jesus being the one depicted in the bible and Jesus, the human-version.

I understand. A lot of people get caught up in the biblical version, because of religious intolerance.

I have religious intolerance, but I have the patience to understand the difference between a real man and a fictional man. So just in case people still don't get it:

You have: The Jesus that exists as the bible depicts him, the Jesus that lived as a normal human being, with no divine powers and then you have Jesus never existing in the biblical sense and the real sense.

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@Frank Apisa,

If God were so nature would be super, that's all I am saying. I am playing with the word.

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@One Eyed Mind,

Plus the "don't know / can't know" and the "doesn't matter" categories.

I think there was a non-magical dude at the onset of the legend, resembling by and large the depicted rabbi minus all the magic and miracles, and also minus the stuff nobody in the young sect could possibly have witnessed: the infancy (it's not even in Mark, at best it's family legends at power 10), the exchanges with the Sanhedrin, Herod and Pilate (there was no lawyer taking notes...). Remains only:

- the parables -- most of them anyway look genuine to me and are interesting on several levels (literary, moral, political, historical... to me at east, others will add: religious/mystical etc.)
- a vague outline of a life with many many holes in it

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

I do agree with those categories.

From my research, I would say Jesus was real. Jesus was a normal man. No gods, spirits, powers and miracles. Jesus was indeed a magician instead. Everything Jesus was said to be doing is being done by magicians today. It's not a coincidence - Jesus was doing magic tricks, which got him killed by the superstitious Romans.

The parables in the OT represent nature before it could love, reason and think.

The parables in the NT represent nature after it could love, reason and think.

That's the summary of what I got from the books and the story surrounding Jesus.

I am also under the impression that Able in the bible was creating everything in his head, hence why in one of the passages Able told God that without him, God would not be known. Able's words had more authority than God's at that point, so I felt like in that point of the story, it was hinting that Able was truly God's god. That passage reminded me of our relationship with the Universe. Without it, we wouldn't exist - without us, it wouldn't be known.

Agree/Disagree?

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@One Eyed Mind,

Largely disagree. I don't believe in gods.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

That is similar to saying that someone is taking Stephen King too seriously when it come to one of his characters.

King does not pretend that his stories are based on real facts. It's called a novel for a reason.

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@Olivier5,

I don't believe in gods either. I believe in the Universe. I believe in our will. I believe in our self-evolving experience. I believe that knowing ourselves is no different than how bacteria is coming to know themselves. Everything is still evolving; to have a world of labels was humanity's biggest mistake.

So what do you disagree with now?

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

King does not pretend that his stories are based on real facts. It's called a novel for a reason.

So? You think that the Bible and all the other Christian supernatural writings have anything to do with real facts and not for the most part far more fiction the any modern author would dare to put out including King?

Trying to find a "real Jesus" from the bible is similar to trying to find a real person in a King novel even if he had base a character on a real person or persons he knew and added in real places for that matter.

The Bible and similar Christian writings are both religion works and works of fiction just like the myths concerning the Greek and Roman gods.

The bible should have the following disclaimer on it title page:

Quote:

Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead is purely coincidental.

or......

Quote:

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

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@BillRM,

Bill, at least take into consideration that Jesus was a real person who was turned into a fictional symbol.

The Aztecs made the same mistake. They sacrifice their people to the "gods", because the "gods" sacrificed themselves, BUT the writing wasn't literal, it was allegorical, which means that the "gods" were simply "well-defined men", or today's lingo: "Geniuses" and "Great Men".

1 Reply

Did Jesus Actually Exist?

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