35
   

Did Jesus Actually Exist?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 09:45 am
Personally, i don't understand how anyone here can have a serious discussion with someone who alleges that god vouchsafed him a prophetic dream. That's without even going into the ludicrous contention of the nature of this so-called prophecy.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 10:00 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Mohammed was also a military campaigner and statesman.


Which explains why he is referred to by a few contemporary non-Muslim authors, who (according to you wiki link) all report military battles between the Arabs and the Romans. In contrast, peaceful Jesus has gone totally under the radar of same Romans, until at some point they started to notice the proliferation of converts.

Mystery solved. Smile
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 10:12 am
@Olivier5,
therapeutae were another "order of Essenes" If you read Josephus work he does mention other orders of Essenes and his description of the Essenes seems to be similar to that of Philo's description.

I can only guess they were like the rest of religions of today in the sense that they also had some among them that behaved a little different than the rest.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 10:39 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
therapeutae were another "order of Essenes"


That's far from proven. The solitary life and the rituals described by Philo(?) are very different from what we know of the Essenes. Who on the other hand seem to have heavily influenced John the Baptist, Jesus and his followers. The parallels are well known: baptism, the whine and bread sharing ritual, the obsession with escatology, contempt for the temple hierarchy...

And unlike the therapeuts, the Essenes left us many docs (dead sea scrolls). And one of the qumran fragments (4Q246 ) says this:
"He will be called the Son of God, and they will call him the Son of the Most High like a shooting star."

Compare with: Luke 1:

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How [w]can this be, since I [x]am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

The shooting star is reflected in Matthew I think. It's a classic Jewish messianic trope.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 10:56 am
@Setanta,
You have to learn to be more forgiving, Set. It must be exhausting to entertain all these feuds. Maybe that's what sweet baby Jesus can teach you: the only way to not be trapped in hatred is to forgive. :-)
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:02 am
@reasoning logic,
Seriously RL...I do not even know what to say to you sometimes, and I am honestly speechless...

I understand that you like to think your mind into the deepest, darkest, crypts in order to try to have empathetic understandings...

But seriously, Why would someone honestly care if ramming a baseball bat up their ass is subjective or objective? Honestly?

Don't you think that if someone wanted to know this answer, that they have more on their plate that whether or not that is objective or subjective?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:05 am
@Olivier5,
Where did you come up with this hatred bullshit? If you're trying to jerk my chain, it's not working.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:14 am
@Setanta,
Not jerking your chain -- you do that pretty well all by yourself.

Ok, no hatred involved, fine... Why don't you tell izzy and neo how much you love them?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:14 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,


Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5350614)
And you happen to be CERTAIN about this because?


Because whatever IS...IS.

It is a tautology.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:17 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
That's far from proven. The solitary life and the rituals described by Philo(?) are very different from what we know of the Essenes. Who on the other hand seem to have heavily influenced John the Baptist, Jesus and his followers. The parallels are well known: baptism, the whine and bread sharing ritual, the obsession with escatology, contempt for the temple hierarchy...

And unlike the therapeuts, the Essenes left us many docs (dead sea scrolls). And one of the qumran fragments (4Q246 ) says this:
"He will be called the Son of God, and they will call him the Son of the Most High like a shooting star."


It appears to me that what was taking place was a division or evolution of religion. The Jews had many differing beliefs and mores were changing.

The accounts by Josephus and Philo show that the Essenes led a strictly communal life – often compared by scholars to later Christian monastic living. Many of the Essene groups appear to have been celibate, but Josephus speaks also of another "order of Essenes" that observed the practice of being engaged for three years and then becoming married.[38] According to Josephus, they had customs and observances such as collective ownership,[39][40] electing a leader to attend to the interests of the group, obedience to the orders from their leader.[41] Also, they were forbidden from swearing oaths[42] and from sacrificing animals.[43] They controlled their tempers and served as channels of peace,[42] carrying weapons only for protection against robbers.[44] The Essenes chose not to possess slaves but served each other[45] and, as a result of communal ownership, did not engage in trading.[46] Josephus and Philo provide lengthy accounts of their communal meetings, meals and religious celebrations.

After a total of three years' probation,[47] newly joining members would take an oath that included the commitment to practice piety towards "the Deity" (το θειον) and righteousness towards humanity, to maintain a pure lifestyle, to abstain from criminal and immoral activities, to transmit their rules uncorrupted and to preserve the books of the Essenes and the names of the Angels.[48] Their theology included belief in the immortality of the soul and that they would receive their souls back after death.[18][49] Part of their activities included purification by water rituals, which was supported by rainwater catchment and storage.

Ritual purification was a common practice among peoples of the Palestine in this period and was thus not specific to the Essenes. Ritual baths are found near many Synagogues of the period.[50]

The Church Father Epiphanius (writing in the 4th century CE) seems to make a distinction between two main groups within the Essenes:[31] "Of those that came before his [Elxai, an Ossaean prophet] time and during it, the Ossaeans and the Nazarean."[51] Epiphanius describes each group as following:

The Nazarean – they were Jews by nationality – originally from Gileaditis, Bashanitis and the Transjordan… They acknowledged Moses and believed that he had received laws – not this law, however, but some other. And so, they were Jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that these Books are fictions, and that none of these customs were instituted by the fathers. This was the difference between the Nazarean and the others…[52]

After this Nazarean sect in turn comes another closely connected with them, called the Ossaeans. These are Jews like the former… originally came from Nabataea, Ituraea, Moabitis and Arielis, the lands beyond the basin of what sacred scripture called the Salt Sea… Though it is different from the other six of these seven sects, it causes schism only by forbidding the books of Moses like the Nazarean.[51]

If it is correct to identify the community at Qumran with the Essenes (and that the community at Qumran are the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls), then according to the Dead Sea Scrolls the Essenes' community school was called "Yahad" (meaning "community") in order to differentiate themselves from the rest of the Jews who are repeatedly labeled "The Breakers of the Covenant".

The therapeutea and the essences are the first ones that I am aware of in written history that did not find it right to posses slaves sure we can find differences between the two but we can find difference between any group.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:21 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:

Don't you think that if someone wanted to know this answer, that they have more on their plate that whether or not that is objective or subjective


I only logically strung words together to make a point but you subjectively may have been offended by mere words. Should I have used different words that were more tasteful for you?
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
No it isn't...

You have made claims you are unsure...

Now you explain that with certainty...Or as an absolute...

It is not the same in different words to claim you are unsure, and make guesses with a coin flip...and then proclaim that as truth with certainty...

Do you disagree that Creationism = subjectivity - objectivity? Or would you say you do not know?

Do you disagree that evolution = nothing = subjectivity/objectivity? Or would you say you do not know?

Would you say that your claim supports that objectivity = objectivity? Or would you say you do you not know?

If you do know...would you say that it is possible for subjectivity = subjectivity? Or do you not know any such examples?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:28 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5350901)
No it isn't...


Yes it is.

As for the questions...you apparently intend to continue with dozens of questions simply because there is a question mark on your keyboard.

If you want to ask me a single question...do so and I will respond. If you ask more than one question, I more than likely will simply ignore the post. If you do ask one question and I answer it...we will discuss the answer; the implications of the question; and the implications of the answer.

If you want to just ask a bunch of questions leading nowhere...do it with someone else.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:31 am
@Frank Apisa,
No it isn't...

You have made claims you are unsure...

Now you explain that with certainty...Or as an absolute...

It is not the same in different words to claim you are unsure, and make guesses with a coin flip...and then proclaim that as truth with certainty...

Do you disagree that Creationism = subjectivity = objectivity, or are you unsure?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:41 am
@Setanta,
This thread is really going to the dogs, Set. I mean some really goofy stuff.
BTW, when I told Tobias Fleabitis about the recent loss of your friend, he was quite saddened and ran into his box.
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/neologist/Toby5_13.jpg
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:43 am
@Olivier5,
So that's what you think this is? A love fest? You're a pompous little jackass, ya know?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:43 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:

Do you disagree that Creationism = subjectivity?


I do not.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:43 am
@Olivier5,
Set and I have an understanding. We never let it get personal.
We stab at each other with rubber knives.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:44 am
@reasoning logic,
There certainly was, among many Jews of the times, an aspiration to a more spiritual and principled approach to life than provided by the legal shenaniganism of the Pharisees or the outdated, obsolete law of Moses as applied by the Sadducees. An aspiration to justice, simplicity, camaraderie, which some transcended into the concept of 'kingdom of god'.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jun, 2013 11:46 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
So that's what you think this is? A love fest? You're a pompous little jackass, ya know?


I love you too, Set... :-)
 

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