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Satan (a discussion)

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 07:49 am
@igm,
Einstein represents the opposite of intuition. There was no mystical hidden knowledge in his work. He attacked deep questions with logic and discovered new answers through reason and mathematical rigor.

Einstein's work is documented, through papers and letters, so that anyone can consciously go through the steps he did to get the same answer in the methodical thought process he used to reach his revolutionary conclusions.

And Einstein's revolution was to break intuition. Time dilation is not intuitive nor is quantized energy. These are thing you reach through math and rigorous logic, not through intuition.

This is why it is so frustrating when the intuition cult, which wants easy answers to come to you without reason, hard work or mathematical rigor hijacks Einstein's legacy.

No one can find any record of where Einstein said this bogus quote about the "intuitive mind" (real quotes have a source and a history). It is not Einstein's style (he didn't use the word "sacred" like that). Obviously someone ascribed it to Einstein because no one would take it seriously if they hadn't.

And there is no record of this quote from before 1976 when it was apparently invented.




maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 07:57 am
@maxdancona,
Maybe Satan is connected to intuition.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:29 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
It is an idiotic quote. Too long for a fortune cookie, but about the same intellectual import.

The reason it was attached to Einstein was to distract people from how stupid it is.
On the contrary. IMHO, it is profound. If you want us to buy your assertion, you should provide evidence.
igm
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:47 am
@maxdancona,
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=science+and+serendipity&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=j0KWUaqaHcGSOPv_gbAF&ved=0CC0QgQMwAA

Science and serendipity...
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:48 am
@neologist,
Which assertion?

If you are going to claim that this is a quote from Einstein, then you need to come up with a reference. When did he say it? Where did he say it? Who recorded it? etc. I am claiming that there is a lack of any evidence that Einstein ever said this. And.... as we see, so far I am unquestionably correct.

Think about what intuition is, it is knowing without reason and without thought.

Intuition is prejudice, it is anger without justification, it is hatred, it is lust and paranoia. If God speaks to us through reason, Satan speaks through intuition.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:52 am
@igm,
Serendipity isn't intuition. Quite the contrary.

Science works through a conscious process of questioning and investigation. When something happens that a scientist can't explain, we don't invent an intuitive reason for it. We apply logic, think up new experiments, question assumptions until we find a solution.

This isn't intuition.
igm
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:55 am
@igm,
Also:
http://www.minerva.mic.ul.ie//vol2/deegan.html
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 08:59 am
@igm,
I would hate to fly in an airplane that was designed with "qualitative research".
igm
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:06 am
@maxdancona,
I could quote references all day... in my opinion you are wrong and there are many many scientists that would agree with me:

http://intuition-indepth.blogspot.co.uk/2007/11/einsteins-intuition.html

You won't listen though... my advice... forget it...
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:24 am
@maxdancona,
http://intuition-indepth.blogspot.co.uk/2007/11/einsteins-intuition.html

"It consists of four interviews with Einstein by Dr. Hermanns, who was initially Einstein's fellow Berliner and then his fellow exile. Hermanns is a sociologist and poet, who has strong mystical leanings and little understanding of physics. The first interview takes place in Berlin as the Nazis are gaining strength and becomes entwined with marching Brownshirts. It is both a wonderfully and terrifyingly bizarre piece, and it would make a striking movie or perhaps play.

The next three interviews take place in the United States during and after the war. Although lacking the drama of the first, they are equally informative. Hermanns continually goads Einstein to talk about things that he is not comfortable talking about, such as mysticism, and then pokes fun at his own obtuseness for continuing to press him. Nonetheless Einstein reveals a great deal to him. The interviews contain a treasure trove of information about Einstein's understanding of intuition. I thought I had the intuition bug, Einstein had it even worse!

Intuition can take many different forms. I identified deeply with a portion of what Einstein said about it. "Yes that's what it's like for me," I found myself saying with wonderment and even delight at the recognition. This kinship to some of what Einstein evoked no doubt comes from the fact that we share a personality type.

After I finished the book, I copied down some quotes I found particularly moving or informative. By putting them one after the other and pondering them a bit I came to see that they formed a coherent, profound, and provocative worldview.

Intuition for Einstein—be it about cosmic law or about predicting the outcome of the Second World War—is intimately connected with feeling. Many associate both feeling and intuition with the gut. But for Einstein, intuition is grounded primarily in the feeling of the heart—in its receptivity and its tendency to move out. It depends on a deep caring and receptivity that pushes him to go beyond what is currently known or thought or happening in order make contact with the cosmic order.

The following passage comes when Einstein and Herrmanns are talking about the Nazis and the flaw in the German national character that lead to Hitler's appeal.

Einstein nodded: he was a good listener. After a pause he said, "The cosmic man must be restored, the whole man who is made in the image and likeness of the arch-force, which you may call God. This man thinks with his heart and not with party dogma. As I've explained before, there is an order in the universe – a cosmic order – and humans have the possibility of understanding these laws."
Einstein leaned back in his chair; so did I,putting my writing pad on my knees. He added, "I have no doubt that the allies will win the war."
I smiled, "Oh, you are my prophet again."
"Prophet or not," he scratched his head, "what I say is more often felt through intuition than thought through intellect."


And so max - Nuff said.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nuff%20said
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 09:43 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Which assertion?

If you are going to claim that this is a quote from Einstein, then you need to come up with a reference. When did he say it? Where did he say it? Who recorded it? etc. I am claiming that there is a lack of any evidence that Einstein ever said this. And.... as we see, so far I am unquestionably correct.

Think about what intuition is, it is knowing without reason and without thought.

Intuition is prejudice, it is anger without justification, it is hatred, it is lust and paranoia. If God speaks to us through reason, Satan speaks through intuition.
igm seems to be carrying this argument astutely. BTW, I am not confusing intuition with Jeremiah's assertion at Jeremiah 17:9; ". . . The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it? "

In a rational sense, I consider it more like insight. In a moral sense I consider it more like conscience. Einsteins' statement should not be taken as an absolute.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 10:56 am
@neologist,
First of all you shouldn't call it "Einstein's statement" until you can show something more than random web hits to attribute it to Einstein.

Second of all... the problem with intuition how often it is wrong. My son has dark skin, as a teenager he realized that people's intuition told them that he was a danger. In the evening especially, people cross the street when he is walking towards them.

People's intuition was upsetting to teen aged boy.

The heart is deceitful of all things, and the deceitful heart expresses itself through intuition.

True insight comes through reason and conscious thought.
igm
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 12:22 pm
@maxdancona,
There's nothing random about Einstein's closest confidant writing down that Einstein believed in intuition and quoting him... what are you like? You have an issue that is personal... I can't help you with that but maybe someone can... You said Einstein couldn't have said the quote - see below. I've showed you ample evidence that he very well could of.. you haven't shown that... are you basing your belief on a gut feeling i.e intuition?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-69jRoBjCc1Y/T-FH0AI1I5I/AAAAAAAAASc/55YhTkEg4q4/s1600/albert-einstein-intuition-300x190.jpg


Quote:

http://intuition-indepth.blogspot.co.uk/2007/11/einsteins-intuition.html

"It consists of four interviews with Einstein by Dr. Hermanns, who was initially Einstein's fellow Berliner and then his fellow exile.

Nonetheless Einstein reveals a great deal to him. The interviews contain a treasure trove of information about Einstein's understanding of intuition. "

He even published a whole book on it and is currently available at amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Poet-Search-Cosmic-Man/dp/0828318735

Professor Hermanns interviewed Einstein in Germany before World War II, and in America after the War. They explored the nature of the cosmic man, but often discussed the horrors of the Holocaust and the implications of the atomic bomb. These verbatim conversations are published for the first time herewith. Einstein and Professor Hermanns knew too well Hitler’s visionary goal which was to make men automatons and strict followers of Nazism. Unwilling to succumb to Nazism as well as fulfilling his desire to survive rather than becoming himself a victim of the Holocaust, Einstein fled to America, where he explored the nature of man and man’s potential to achieve new heights as human beings. In his candid revelations, Einstein transcends physics and enters into a new sphere of humanism—one of a single humanity based on dignity. The theme throughout the four conversations surrounds the issue against a recurrent Anti-Semitism, especially that conducted by the Nazi.
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 12:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The story is a joke of sorts, because the only thing it can possibly "teach" a reasonable, intelligent person is that the god cannot be trusted in any way.


It also inferred that being naked is somehow a bad thing. Who would have thought that?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 12:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Intuition, IMHO, often leads to discovery. It would be the first step in forming a hypothesis after one has observed what might formerly have been considered random data. That is the way our minds work. Ask anyone who has put down the Sunday crossword puzzle for a few hours, how the clues that seemed so esoteric have suddenly become obvious.

That does not mean, IMO, one should accept all intuitive thought without first subjecting it to the rational. But the surest way to stifle innovation is to discard intuition entirely.

Gotta use yer head.
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 May, 2013 01:03 pm
@neologist,
It is just another way of saying, "gut feeling". Almost anything begins with a gut feeling or intuition, if you will. One develops and expected outcome. The true Scientist then doesn't push results and hide outcomes to get his expected results, he accepts the proof and moves on. This way you trust the scientist.

Einstein was one of these, a scientist that could be trusted. For instance, he didn't believe in quantum physics. Yet he did proofs that resulted in the possibility or probability of quantum phyics. He didn't hide the facts proven it just wasn't tight yet. Applicable quantum physics hadn't gotten to the point of proof yet, but I am positive Eintein would have changed his mind and wholly back quantum physics had he lived. After all, it proven many of his hypothesis.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 05:21 pm
@neologist,
Well said
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 06:24 pm
@neologist,
There are two different things here (apparently both being called 'intuition').

In this post you were talking about 'creativity'. Creativity is clearly a good thing, coming up with lots of possible solutions to sort through is a perfectly good way to solve problems. Of course, after you have used creativity to generate new possibilities, it is still your conscious rational mind that ensures the new solution fits. It is your conscious mind that says 'aha! that's it' when you come up with a new word in your cross word puzzle.

This is very different than the other kind of intuition we have been discussing. When you have reach an answer with no conscious rational thought involved, this is not creativity. It is prejudice.

The only similarity between creativity and prejudice is that they both generate wrong answers. Of course this is OK with creativity because you will apply a conscious rational thought process to discard mistakes.

The danger is when you reach a wrong answer and accept it as truth without a rational conscious thought process.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 06:32 pm
@maxdancona,
Intuition relies upon the sub-concious mind which is merely a layer of cognition to which we don't have direct access. That for the vast majority of us it can only achieve awareness through seeping into the concious mind makes it somewhat unreliable in terms of communication, but no less valid in terms of results.

The notion that the concious mind is somehow utterly reliable is absurd.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 06:55 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The notion that the concious mind is somehow utterly reliable is absurd.


The conscious mind is much more reliable then prejudice. It has the advantage that it must be based on something concrete and knowable, and that you can question what it is based on.

With prejudice you just know. There is no questioning and no testing what your prejudice is based on. And, when your prejudice is wrong (as it often is) you are stuck with it.
 

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