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Satan (a discussion)

 
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 09:09 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
See, ros, we can get along. But don't assume that I take the Genesis account literally. The seven days, for example, were not literally 24 hours in length, but that's another issue.

I never thought we couldn't get along. I find your arguments highly entertaining Smile

It's good to know that you don't take the genesis account literally.
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 09:09 am
@maxdancona,
Id like to interject if I may,

Quote:
14And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. 15And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”


Are we suggesting that the conversation here was with a snake of the earth? If so the words of 15 suggest that this very snake would bruise the heel of "the woman" of which there was only one at this juncture.
So if we are taking his words literally, Eve was due a nasty bite and she would then kill the serpent by stepping on his head. By interpreting the snake as literal, the sense leaves the text entirely
What then is the woman, what of the seed?

If however the latter part was symbolic, then so too surely would the former.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 09:20 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:
I never thought we couldn't get along. I find your arguments highly entertaining Smile

It's good to know that you don't take the genesis account literally.
I always thought you were a peachy keen guy, ros.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 09:20 am
@Smileyrius,
Thumbs up
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 09:43 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
The real object of God's judgement was the spirit creature who misused the serpent. The Bible describes Satan as “the father of the lie” and “the original serpent.” Both of these expressions apparently point back to Satan’s using a visible animal, a serpent, as his mouthpiece to induce Eve to disobey God’s command. See John 8:44; Revelation 20:2.
Additionally, my herpetologist assures me that no snakes were harmed in this production.


In most translations of Revelations 20:2 Satan is described as "the dragon,that ancient serpent." He is the dragon/serpent. Where do you get the idea that Satan was the spirit creature who misused the serpent, or that he used a visible animal as a mouthpiece?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 10:11 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
I always thought you were a peachy keen guy, ros.

Doesn't mean I'm going to take it easy on you if you say something silly though Wink
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 11:19 am
@Smileyrius,
The text says what it says.

It doesn't say "Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all of the spiritual beings". It doesn't say, "A spiritual being put words in the mouth of the most cautious of all the animals". It doesn't say anything about a spiritual being putting words in the mouth of anyone.

It could of said any of these things. It didn't.

You have to think about the person who wrote down this story, and the people it was intended for. These people understood this as a story about a serpent who deceived Adam and Eve. They would have understood the story equally well if the story said that a Spritual being deceiving Adam and Eve, after all Genesis talks about God and Angels which they understood perfectly well.

And you keep bringing in John and Revelations, books that were not read by the original readers of Genesis because they would not be written for a thousand years.

The text clearly says it was a snake who deceived Adam and Eve. It goes so far to mention twice that this snake was one of the "Beasts of the Field".

This is how it would have been intended by a writer in the bronze age, and this is how it would have been understood by the people it was written for.

If you don't want to accept the biblical text, then fine. But the rest of this "explanation" is just stuff you are making up with no basis in the text or logic considering how and for whom it was written.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 11:30 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . Well...I was talking about that god described in the Bible...so naturally I would use a small "g." . . . .
Rats! I thought you had finally realized there is a God with a capital 'G' , different from god who deceived Eve.

And I had such high hopes.


Oh, Neo...often I use GOD (all caps) because there MIGHT be a GOD different from that silly god of the Bible.

Interesting that you are able to tell us that there IS one, though.

You know that how????

Or is it just another guess you are trying to present as knowledge?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 11:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Oh, Neo...often I use GOD (all caps) because there MIGHT be a GOD different from that silly god of the Bible.

Interesting that you are able to tell us that there IS one, though.

You know that how????

Or is it just another guess you are trying to present as knowledge?
The impasse between us, Frank, rests on what each of us accepts as proof. I understand the epistemological shortcomings of my conclusions. Yet, I am like Peter who told Jesus "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6: 68-69)

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 11:52 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Oh, Neo...often I use GOD (all caps) because there MIGHT be a GOD different from that silly god of the Bible.

Interesting that you are able to tell us that there IS one, though.

You know that how????

Or is it just another guess you are trying to present as knowledge?
The impasse between us, Frank, rests on what each of us accepts as proof. I understand the epistemological shortcomings of my conclusions. Yet, I am like Peter who told Jesus "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6: 68-69)




I think our differences go deeper than you are willing to acknowledge, Neo.

In any case...you are telling us there is a GOD, who unlike the god of the Bible is worthy of capital letters.

I am asking you point blank...DO YOU KNOW THIS...or is it just a guess that you are trying to pass off as knowledge?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 12:12 pm
@maxdancona,
The Genesis account could have specified the number of years represented by the creative days, but it did not. It could have explained the means by which Jehovah created each specie, thus affirming or denying evolutionary theory, but it did not. Instead, it crammed what could have been billions of years into a few pages. Allegories and symbolism abound. Some things, however, are worth mentioning:
1] The first lie is recorded in the 3rd chapter of Genesis.
2] The perpetrator of that lie is the one Jesus identified as "the father of the lie", in John 8:22
3] Perhaps you believe the aforementioned liar solicited the cooperation of the serpent, thereby bringing punishment upon snakedom. (Apparently, snakes have adapted well to their lot; so I doubt the word 'punishment' is appropriate. Perhaps, consequences)
4] The bruising in the head and bruising in the heel is apparently prophetic as well as symbolic, so why do you insist on the literal interpretation?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 12:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case...you are telling us there is a GOD, who unlike the god of the Bible is worthy of capital letters.

No.

I'm telling you the God of the Bible, the Creator, whose name is represented by the Hebrew Tetragrammaton and often pronounced either Yahweh or Jehovah is the true God and worth of our worship.

Sorry, Frank. I know that's saying a lot.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 12:23 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case...you are telling us there is a GOD, who unlike the god of the Bible is worthy of capital letters.

No.

I'm telling you the God of the Bible, the Creator, whose name is represented by the Hebrew Tetragrammaton and often pronounced either Yahweh or Jehovah is the true God and worth of our worship.

Sorry, Frank. I know that's saying a lot.


It is NOT saying a lot, Neo...in fact, it is not saying much at all.

Why don't you stop evading the question...no matter what it is you are saying or attempting to say.

Do you know there is a GOD or God or god...or are you just guessing and trying to pass off your guess as knowledge?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 12:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you know there is a GOD or God or god...or are you just guessing and trying to pass off your guess as knowledge?
I know it like I know the sun will rise tomorrow. Call that a guess, if you wish.
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 12:47 pm
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
This discussion is under the premise that Satan both exists and opposes God.


Satan neither "opposes God" nor is evil. Satan and God just exist or "are"....

Both have to be for creation to be. The Ying and the Yang, Odin and Loki, etc. If one killed or otherwise eliminated the other one, the Universe would shatter.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 01:09 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you know there is a GOD or God or god...or are you just guessing and trying to pass off your guess as knowledge?
I know it like I know the sun will rise tomorrow. Call that a guess, if you wish.


You do not KNOW it at all...that is apparent. But to liken it to "knowing" that the sun will rise tomorrow" is almost too funny for words. You could have done better.

The sun will not "rise" tomorrow, Neo. Most likely, our planet will continue to rotate on its axis...and it will give the illusion of a sun rise. But that is all it will be...an illusion which seemed very real to the relatively unsophisticated minds of people alive thousands of years ago.

C'mon. Just acknowledge to us that you do not know if there is a GOD or not. Or if I am wrong...tell me about the revelation.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 01:47 pm
@BillW,
What would happen if they were to duke it out?
Victory or tie game?
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 01:49 pm
@neologist,
Why would they, they each have their own jobs to do - they aren't against each other, they got a lot of work to do......"Enlightenment"
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 01:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Do you know there is a GOD or God or god...or are you just guessing and trying to pass off your guess as knowledge?
I know it like I know the sun will rise tomorrow. Call that a guess, if you wish.
You do not KNOW it at all...that is apparent. But to liken it to "knowing" that the sun will rise tomorrow" is almost too funny for words. You could have done better.

The sun will not "rise" tomorrow, Neo. Most likely, our planet will continue to rotate on its axis...and it will give the illusion of a sun rise. But that is all it will be...an illusion which seemed very real to the relatively unsophisticated minds of people alive thousands of years ago.

C'mon. Just acknowledge to us that you do not know if there is a GOD or not. Or if I am wrong...tell me about the revelation.
Aww, heck, Frank. I should know better than to try and fool an intellectual like yourself. I answered as if I might have answered Joe Sixpack. So, let me be more clear:
I know there is a God the same way I know that, by a confluence of celestial events, the sun will appear in the eastern sky tomorrow morning.
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 May, 2013 02:03 pm
@neologist,
One thing I can conclude Neo, is if there isn't a God and/or Satan - mankind would (OR did) invent one: if the sun doesn't come up tomorrow, bend over and kiss your ass goodbye cause it ain't coming up the next morning!
0 Replies
 
 

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