13
   

Satan (a discussion)

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 07:00 pm
@maxdancona,
You alone seem to be equating intuition with prejudice.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 07:09 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Prejudice is arriving at a conclusion without conscious rational thought. How do you distinguish this from intuition which is arriving at a conclusion without conscious rational thought?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 07:50 pm
@maxdancona,
Prejudice defined:

1.opinion formed beforehand: a preformed opinion, usually an unfavorable one, based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes

2.holding of ill-informed opinions: the holding of preformed opinions based on insufficient knowledge, irrational feelings, or inaccurate stereotypes

3.irrational dislike of somebody: an unfounded hatred, fear, or mistrust of a person or group, especially one of a particular religion, ethnicity, nationality, sexual preference, or social status


You'll note that nowhere is the term "conscious thought" used.

You are operating on the assumption that sub-conscious or intutive thought is perforce irrational.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 08:00 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
That is the same as intuition, with one difference.

When you do it, it is 'intuition'. When someone else does it, it is 'prejudice'.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 08:01 pm
@maxdancona,
Glib, but no closer to the truth.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 May, 2013 08:08 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
The truth? Please tell me what truth.

The key word here is irrational. An intuition or a prejudice is based on irrational thought rather than conscious reason. This is why people's intuition is so often wrong and at times dangerously so. By not questioning your assumptions, you are at the mercy of your own preconceptions and emotions.

A conscious process of reason and questioning is far better. Intuition (I mean 'prejudice' rather than 'creativity') is an excuse to avoid critical thinking.

Reaching a conclusion without conscious, critical thought, is dangerous.



igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 05:45 am
@maxdancona,

If intuition followed by rational thought was very probably good enough for Einstein it's good enough for me!
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 09:42 am
@igm,
I have no problem with intuition followed by rational thought. In that case intuition functions as creativity. The ideas will be questioned with logic and when your "intuitive" ideas are wrong, they can be easily discarded.

Having ideas come from somewhere other than rational thought is a good thing-- as long as you are willing to question your ideas and let them go when they turn out to not be logical.

Reaching conclusions without logical thought is the problem.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:41 am
@maxdancona,
I think we agree?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:50 am
@igm,
Good.

The point being that trusting your intuition is the same as listening to Satan. Acting on conclusions without rational thought is a dangerous game with often tragic consequences.

igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 11:01 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Good.

The point being that trusting your intuition is the same as listening to Satan. Acting on conclusions without rational thought is a dangerous game with often tragic consequences.



But initial intuition can enable the gifted to think outside the box and then to follow up with rational thought... that's where general relativity may have come from in my opinion... without it the world would be a very different place... again in my opinion.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 11:14 am
@igm,
So we do agree.

And that is the difference between creativity (a starting point to generate ideas) and prejudice (a conclusion reached without rational thought).

The word "intuition" is used to refer to both of these things.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 04:19 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
@maxdancona,
Id like to interject if I may,

Quote:
14And Jehovah God proceeded to say to the serpent: “Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life. 15And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”


Are we suggesting that the conversation here was with a snake of the earth? If so the words of 15 suggest that this very snake would bruise the heel of "the woman" of which there was only one at this juncture.
So if we are taking his words literally, Eve was due a nasty bite and she would then kill the serpent by stepping on his head. By interpreting the snake as literal, the sense leaves the text entirely
What then is the woman, what of the seed?

If however the latter part was symbolic, then so too surely would the former.


Just following up on our chat, I have since studied a little deeper into the matter and have found the follow up to the conversation had here in Revelation 12. It seems to discuss all three mentioned in the Genesis account... The woman, the serpent also known as dragon, and the seed or offspring. I quote from a random translation, I think the new International
Quote:

12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 05:40 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life.


Quote:
an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.


You are really claiming that these two passages are referring to the same animal simply because the word "serpent" is used for both? That is an awful stretch.
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 09:34 am
@maxdancona,
actually it was more the interaction with the woman and the seed, and the expression "the ancient serpent" that suggested to me it could represent the same one.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 12:25 pm
@Smileyrius,
And in some translations, "the original serpent" (Revelation 12:9)
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 01:28 pm
@neologist,
Seems to me the bible is for those who also like cryptic crosswords... it's too cryptic for me Confused
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 06:21 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

The truth? Please tell me what truth.

The key word here is irrational. An intuition or a prejudice is based on irrational thought rather than conscious reason. This is why people's intuition is so often wrong and at times dangerously so. By not questioning your assumptions, you are at the mercy of your own preconceptions and emotions.

A conscious process of reason and questioning is far better. Intuition (I mean 'prejudice' rather than 'creativity') is an excuse to avoid critical thinking.

Reaching a conclusion without conscious, critical thought, is dangerous.


Only you have claimed intuition is synonomous with prejudice.

Intuition is hardly 100% accurate but neither is a person's rational conscious thought.

So-called rational thinking is not the flawless process you think it is.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 06:43 pm
@igm,
Intelligent people sometimes have trouble with the Bible because it is not intended to be a scientific treatise. Rather it was written so the least sophisticated of us could understand God's purpose. Not a vehicle intended to be used by the priesthood to dominate others.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 06:52 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Only you have claimed intuition is synonomous with prejudice.


Actually, I am the only one who explained the difference between intuition and prejudice.

Intuition is when you reach a conclusion without rational conscious thought.

Prejudice is when someone else reaches a conclusion without rational conscious thought.

 

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