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John Kerry believes people are born gay

 
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 02:04 pm
Heywood wrote:
In any case, being born gay is no more a defect than being born with green eyes, or with freckles or anything else for that matter. Its natural, and it should be left at that.

Now, people born with a club foot, or another leg, or a tail... now THATS a defect!


Being born with Turner or Klinefelter Syndrome is "normal" too but it's still a birth defect. There are a lot of chromosonal defects that aren't apparent externally. Being born with green or brown eyes is a normal genetic variation. From the article BBB posted above the end result is because of abnormal hormonal conditions in the mother. They are NOT the same thing.

While you may see all of this as insignificant it could very easily turn out to be enormously significant. If it's "proven" that one's sexiual orientation can be affected by the mother's release (or lack of) hormones during the fetus's developemnt you can bet that will immediately be followed by recommendations for testing during gestation and treatments to "eliminate the possibility" of a child being born gay/lesbian - just as the Easter Seals organizations has been working for years to eliminate Turner and Klinefelter Syndromes.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 02:11 pm
The discussion has taken an interesting turn. I personally consider homosexuality and bisexuality a desireable trait, since many who express these characteristics tend to be more creative, and better educated.
Closeting yourself is not fun. I am probably on the low side of Nimh's scale (bisexual, but mostly attracted to women and very feminine males), and therefore can interact in an environment where my orientation is considered "wrong," like the Army, and the Army guard. However, I lived in fear whilst on active duty of being discovered. Similarly, the volunteer fire department I played with in Baltimore County would have booted me in an instant if they would have know I was a "fag," Although I was certainly not the only one there who was what they so affectionately termed a "flaming butt cake."
Perhaps we as a society are finally going to come to an understanding that sexual orientation is not a major detriment to anything, any more than hair or eye colour is.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2004 08:31 pm
At the time of the "don't ask don't tell" charade, one of the leading political cartoonists did a cartoon of this hulking, Ah-nold type, with an M-60 machine gun in one hand and a trench knife in the other, bandoleers of ammunition criss-crossing his chest, and a look of barely suppressed rage on his face. To one side stand two apprehensive-looking NCO's, and one is saying to the other, "Oh no, i'm not gonna tell him, you tell him no gays in the military."

Made me laugh, and reminded me of Alexander III of Macedon, Julius Caesar, Richard Lionheart, etc. . . .
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kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2004 07:26 am
Re: John Kerry believes people are born gay
Fedral wrote:
They still don't KNOW what causes it. You may be right ... you may be wrong, but posting something as fact before all data is in is deliberately encouraging a possible fallacy.


So it's the end of any Christian religion for you, too?

We can't be sure there's a god, so we shouldn't allow anyone to state that they believe in god or have personal thoughts that god exists?

I doubt you'd go along with those premises...so why do you care that someone may be close to saying that there is NOTHING "wrong" or "deviant" or "threatening" about homosexuality. Who can it harm?

You show me a life ruined by homosexuality, I'll show you 1000 ruined by religion, and still have some to spare.

Yes, I'm being deliberately provocative. Yes, I think you don't agree that it's OK to be gay. No, I don't KNOW that for certain, so I may have to censor myself.

Please tell me you'd be just as happy if you discovered that your son or daughter introduced you to their same-sex partner and I'll happily retract all of the above.

BBB - thanks for the interesting articles.

Soz - yet again I think you're on the money: we're all on a scale, somewhere. Some don't like to admit that.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 05:32 pm
Hehhehheh ...

vaguely related ...:

<grin>
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Miller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 05:57 pm
Re: John Kerry believes people are born gay
doglover wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
If the name of the institution wasn't important, then why not just call it "marriage"?Clearly, the name is important, otherwise Kerry wouldn't be making the distinction between "marriage" and "civil union."


Marriage is 'Holy Matrimony' and denotes a union sanctioned by God.

Civil Union denotes a union sanctioned by the State in which it was performed giving the couple the same rights and priviliges a married couple enjoys.


Why is the license called a "marriage license" and not a "Holy Matrrimony license"? Cool
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fealola
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 06:42 pm
BBB, that article you posted was published in 1988, I believe. More on the author, the contriversial Dr. Money:

John Money, Ph.D.

John Money was at the center of the University based Gender Identity Clinic phenomena of the 1960's. His research interests spanned the entire field of sexology, from gender identity, sexual orientation, to paraphilias. Based at John Hopkins Medical Center, Money heavily influenced the protocols used to treat both intersex and transsexuality. Money espoused the position that gender identity flowed from early childhood experiences and that children could be assigned either gender without regard to any of the other sex indicators. This lead to treating intersexed children with early surgery so as to confirm in the child's family's minds the assigned sex to avoid confusing messages as the child matured.

Money's hypothesis and recommendations lead directly to the tragedy and "experiment of opportunity" of John Theissen, a man who's penis was accidentally destroyed during circumcision. Mr. Thessien was later surgically reassigned as female. His parents then proceeded to raise him as their daughter, while his identical twin brother served as "control." When the children we several years old the clinics declared that the reassigned child was accepting "her" gender as a girl. The case became known as that of John/Joan. Money published this case as proof of his hypothesis. Unfortunately, John Theissen as a teen refused to continue the program, insisting that he was a boy... he grew to be a man, obtained phalloplasty, married, and is raising three children from his wife's prior relationships. It can be said that his is a case of surgically created transsexuality, as his personal gender identity was at odds with his sex assignment as an infant. Mr. Theissen's story was published in Rolling Stone magazine in the mid '90s after a scientic paper was published by Milton Diamond, a proponent of pre- and neonatal hormonal brain sex differentiation.

The practice of surgical sex assignment of infants has been seriously questioned by individuals and organizations such as the Intersex Society of North America

http://www.transhistory.org/history/TH_John_Money.html


*******(I read a book about the boy, John Thiessen. His story and what was exposed about Money were very revealing. --A kook and unethical-- very interesting. Money's views, about the "nurture" part of identity are considered by many to be, very contoversial. (The prenatal stuff, I have no idea)

Link to booK: Webpage Title

Review of the book:

As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl



In As Nature Made Him, author John Colapinto offers a powerful true story that may shake beliefs you take for granted -- not least that doctors can be trusted to work in their patients' best interests. In lucid, impassioned prose, Colapinto, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, traces the life of David Thiessen, a boy sex-changed to female during infancy as part of a cruel experiment. In 1965, David (then named Bruce) was one of a pair of male twins. After a catastrophic circumcision accident, Bruce's penis was destroyed, while his brother Brian remained intact. Devastated, the twins' parents turned for help to Dr. John Money, a world-famous Johns Hopkins psychologist. They were searching for a solution. Instead, they found themselves pawns in a test designed to confirm Money's pet theory -- that gender is a purely social phenomenon, a matter of nurture, not nature.

Indeed, for 20 years, the doctor touted the success of the so-called "John/Joan" case. The surgically created girl, he claimed, had grown up contentedly feminine, in contrast to her rough-and-tumble brother. She fulfilled numerous stereotypes: shy, neat, and pretty, she loved babies and cooking. Most importantly, she considered herself a girl and seemed female to others. Gender, Money announced, was malleable. This finding was hugely influential, seized upon by everyone from feminist academics to pediatricians. And Money, already extremely powerful, rose to the top of his field, wielding enormous influence over surgeons and psychologists alike.

The real story did not emerge until many years later. For in fact, "Brenda" (the name the infant was given after surgery) had never felt female -- and was not perceived as a girl by others. Tormented by her peers, she was nicknamed "cavewoman" and sneered at for her mannish gait. She regularly got into brawls and was failing academically. Even the few bonds the unhappy child formed with tomboys were fragile, since she was perceived not as a tough girl but as a boy in a dress. In her teens, Brenda became suicidally depressed. She refused to go back to see Dr. Money, with whom she'd had annual visits until the age of 14. And she began to dress as a boy. Finally, her parents broke down and told her the truth. "More than anything else," David recalls of this revelation. "I was relieved. Suddenly it all made sense why I felt the way I did."

"Brenda" reverted to male. He had surgery to create a cosmetic penis and therapy to deal with his rage and depression. He changed his name to David, a reference, in part, to the biblical figure who slew a giant. Eventually, he married a loving woman with three children by other fathers. But all the while, the scientific theory supposedly based on his experience continued to guide medical protocols. Money claimed that the family had been "lost to follow-up" -- despite the fact that they never moved or changed their phone number. The case had special influence on the treatment of intersexed (that is, hermaphroditic) infants, who were increasingly "normalized" to female, despite evidence that, like Thiessen, many such children feel traumatized by the surgery and grow up to reject their gender. Finally, in 1996, biologist Milton Diamond, a longtime professional enemy of Money, tracked Thiessen down and revealed the truth to his colleagues, setting off a bomb that effectively destroyed Money's reputation.

Despite its wrenching subject matter, As Nature Made Him is an inspiring read. Colapinto has done a thorough job researching not only Thiessen's medical treatment but the social context in which it took place. And as with the best journalistic nonfiction, the author uses vivid and suspenseful storytelling to make complex ideas accessible. Colapinto builds an especially strong case against Dr. Money -- revealing horrific details about the doctor's treatment of the twins, to whom he showed pornography and even pressured to act out sexual acts, all in an attempt to "cement" their gender identities. Most of all, though, this is the story of one person: David Thiessen. With compassion and insight, Colapinto illuminates the courage of a remarkable individual who triumphed over the miserable treatment he received to become -- in the most literal sense -- a self-made man.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 06:43 pm
Holy Matrimony, Batman ! ! ! That wedding party is all men ! ! !
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angie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 07:00 pm
.

from the article above: "...... consider three terms: nature/critical period/nurture. Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality all have both prenatal and later causes, which interact during critical periods of development to create a long-lasting or even immutable sexuoerotic status. "


What also needs to be understood here is that "the later causes" occur very early in childhood, well before puberty, and once sexual orientation is fixed, typically before age ten, it cannot be changed. It cannot be changed.

This is not what some people want to hear. They want to believe the "later causes" occur well into puberty and beyond, and are therefore avoidable. (Hence the "choice" argument.) If this were true, then (they believe) their discrimination is justifiable.

Geez.


Anyone who has ever talked with a struggling gay teenager knows how absurd the "choice" argument is. Teenagers want. more than anything else, to fit in. To be like everyone else. Choose to be gay ? Choose to be ridiculed, judged, denied civil rights ? Who would choose this ?

Radical religious extremists continue the assault on gay citizens. Now they want to write discrimination into the "sacred" document that guarantees our liberties and protections. It's wrong. America is better than this.


.
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fealola
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 07:05 pm
angie is not quoting the article directly above her post. -are you? Laughing
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 07:14 pm
fealola
fealola, medical science (doctors) have made terrible mistakes regarding correcting ambiguous gender, etc. as they strive to learn more about human sexuality and events in the womb.

I chose the article because it was the most complete range of info I found after reading through several sites that were based mostly on religious bias and anti-homosexual views.

Thank you for the information you posted and your comments. Any other articles from respected scientists based on fact, not bias, will be helpful for all of us striving to understand the issues.

BBB
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fealola
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 07:24 pm
I agree!

My purpose for posting about Money, (and I got carried away!) was to point out that, at the time when he was treating Theissen his theories were popular. But later on he was exposed as unethical and his theories were questioned. (As all theories should be) There is agreement in the scientific world and the trangendered world that his beliefs caused much suffering.

It's impossible to keep up these days! (Thank goodness for BBB and A2K!)
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