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"Thy kingdom come". What's that about?

 
 
Smileyrius
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 May, 2013 08:31 am
as I see it, a kingdom is a domain under rule of a king. The domain is often a point of contention but the King is clearly God if the kingdom belongs to him. Praying for said kingdom to come suggests that it is not currently here.

You use Daniel 2 as a source, which is interesting because in Nebuchadnezzars dream, the idol of different metals each depicting a world power through the ages, the final part of that dream depicts a rock cut out of Mount Zion referring to Gods Holy Mountain, which destroys the idol altogether. This suggests the kingdom will replace human governments here on Earth.

The only way I make sense of this is by assuming this rock to be the same Kingdom that Jesus refers to in Matthew.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 May, 2013 11:29 pm
@1Prince,
1Prince wrote:
If you are referring to the prayer called the" Our Father" Jesus is saying that Gods kingdom will come when His will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

Remember, No one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born from above. No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and spirit. Flesh makes flesh spirit makes spirit. Don ot be amazed you must all be born from above.
What is your opinion of Smiley's post above? http://able2know.org/topic/213526-2#post-5316643
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 09:28 pm
Neologist asked- "Thy Kingdom Come: Many people repeat these words of Jesus, often several times a day. To what is Jesus referring?"
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It's part of the Lord's Prayer and as we mumble that bit it has a dual purpose-
1- It reminds us that Death is coming so we better make sure we've got our act together before then.
2- It tells God we're looking forward to meeting him in his kingdom.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 10:58 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
How about the kingdom referred to in Daniel 2:44?
Could that be the same?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 11:26 pm
Neologist asked "How about the kingdom referred to in Daniel 2:44?
Could that be the same?"
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Might be, or it might not. Nobody knows the exact meaning of "kingdom" anyway; for example some christians think it's going to be established here on this material earth after judgment day, and others (including me) think it exists in some other non-material plane of existence like Jesus hinted at-
"I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going" (John 8:14)

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Sep, 2013 11:45 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
I wrote:
How about the kingdom referred to in Daniel 2:44?
Could that be the same?
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Might be, or it might not. Nobody knows the exact meaning of "kingdom" anyway; for example some christians think it's going to be established here on this material earth after judgment day, and others (including me) think it exists in some other non-material plane of existence like Jesus hinted at-
"I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going" (John 8:14)
Excuse my while I wipe off the oil. That was one of the most slippery answers I have seen in years. Have you read Daniel chapter 2? It clearly is about real government. Dumbing down the definition of 'kingdom' is a convenient dodge used by nominal christians. You claim to know your Bible; but I detect a dichotomy between what the Bible says and what you would have us believe.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2013 03:23 pm
Neologist said- "Excuse my while I wipe off the oil. That was one of the most slippery answers I have seen in years"
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Not sure I understand you mate, you started this topic by asking "Thy kingdom come, what's that all about?", and I replied by saying nobody can define exactly what "kingdom" means, and threw in a few educated guesses.
You then came back by implying you DO know what it means! So enlighten us please..Smile
PS- and as a matter of interest why is it so important for you to know precisely what "kingdom" means?
Surely it could simply mean "the place where God and Jesus are", aren't you happy with that definition?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2013 10:41 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
. . . PS- and as a matter of interest why is it so important for you to know precisely what "kingdom" means?
Surely it could simply mean "the place where God and Jesus are", aren't you happy with that definition?
Good definition as far as it goes.
It leaves out God's purpose for the earth to be inhabited.

Those from earth who happen to be raised to heavenly life will serve as kings and priests over the earth. (See Revelation 5:10) Who do you believe will be the earthly subjects if not millions, perhaps billions, of perfect humans?
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2013 10:53 pm
Neologist wrote:
Quote:
"Those from earth who happen to be raised to heavenly life will serve as kings and priests over the earth. (See Revelation 5:10) Who do you believe will be the earthly subjects if not millions, perhaps billions, of perfect humans?"


If I have to come back to this atoms-and-molecules material earth, I swear to God I don't want to come, and neither do I want to be a king or priest, that's just Revelation word-picture metaphor..Smile
But I know we WON'T be coming back, none of us will, because the scriptures in context all indicate a non-material world on another plane, i.e "heaven" or "paradise", although various crackpot cults and sects believe otherwise.
Anyway the earth has only got another few billion years before the sun expands and incinerates it, nothing "eternal" there..Wink
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2013 11:01 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Glad to see you got the quote function down. It helps.

So, what you're saying is the creator of the universe the one whose purpose cannot be denied, is incapable of maintaining Eden like conditions on earth. And, even if he could, you would not be willing to accept life in paradise as a a gift? You certainly have high standards. Is there anything else you care to teach God?
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Sep, 2013 11:46 pm
@neologist,
Neologist wrote:
Quote:
So, what you're saying is the creator of the universe the one whose purpose cannot be denied, is incapable of maintaining Eden like conditions on earth. And, even if he could, you would not be willing to accept life in paradise as a a gift? You certainly have high standards. Is there anything else you care to teach God?


Think of the Earth as just a "throwaway testing ground" which, after having served it's purpose is disposed of after judgement day.
All Christians hate being trapped in their material bodies on this material earth, and the last thing they want is to have to come back to it, even if it's a renovated Eden.
Rather, they want to be "absorbed" into God and Jesus in a totally different plane of non-material existence, call it a "Golden Soul Pool" where there's no individuality, or loneliness, or pain..
Jesus said- "On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)


neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 01:57 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
I couldn't sleep, thinking of the mental anguish you must be enduring.
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
....Think of the Earth as just a "throwaway testing ground" which, after having served it's purpose is disposed of after judgement day.
But God does not think of the earth that way.

"He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited..." (Isaiah 45:18)

"But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalms 37:17) Does that sound like Jesus' teaching that the "meek shall inherit the earth"? Do you suppose the meek shall inherit a refuse heap?

How about this gem? "For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.22As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (Proverbs 2:21)
Romeo Fabulini
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 04:20 am
@neologist,
You're flogging a dead horse mate.
Jesus was quite specific- "In my Father's House are many mansions... and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am" (John 14:2/3)
See, that's plain enough, he's coming back to this material earth to collect his mates and whisk them off to mansions in God's kingdom ("house")..Smile
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 07:25 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
You're flogging a dead horse mate.
Jesus was quite specific- "In my Father's House are many mansions... and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am" (John 14:2/3)
See, that's plain enough, he's coming back to this material earth to collect his mates and whisk them off to mansions in God's kingdom ("house")..Smile
Yes, there is more than one group to receive salvation. And one group will reside with Jesus in God's presence. Jesus was speaking to them in your above citation, What will that group do there? Have you asked yourself that? Go back a few of my posts to see my reference to Revelation 5:10. These are the ones who will preside as kings and priests over the earth. Who do you think will be the subjects of that kingdom? Hint: I plan to be one of them. John the Baptist will also be there. (See Matthew 11:11), as will all those faithful ones who died before Jesus instituted the new covenant.

Where did you get the knowledge and understanding to judge, not only angels, but the Armageddon survivors mentioned in Revelation 7: 9-14 and the billions of resurrected mankind mentioned by Jesus in John 5:28? BTW, all that includes me, providing I stay faithful. I'll have to say, you have said nothing so far to inspire my confidence.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 05:05 pm
@neologist,
Neologist wrote:
Quote:
you have said nothing so far to inspire my confidence.


Firstly, why is it so important to you what the afterlife is like? Jesus used the word "paradise" to describe it, so why isn't that description good enough for you?
Our discussion is therefore only of academic interest as to whether that paradise will be on a new material earth in material bodies, or in a new non-material plane of existence as spiritual life-forms.
You say it'll be a material paradise, in which case you need to explain a couple of things-
Firstly if we'll all be in material bodies, what will those bodies be like, young, middleaged or old? For example if i meet my granma there, will she be in her old 80-year-old body or in her teenage body? If the latter, how will i recognise her?
I believe in a 'non-material paradise', and Matthew ch 22 about a widow who'd had seven husbands backs me up to the hilt-
Jesus was asked-"at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Jesus replied- "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven" (Matt 22:23-30)


That's clear enough, we become non-material life-forms ("angels") in a non-material paradise..Smile


neologist
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 08:06 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
You still miss the importance of two grouips:
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Firstly if we'll all be in material bodies, what will those bodies be like, young, middleaged or old? For example if i meet my granma there, will she be in her old 80-year-old body or in her teenage body? If the latter, how will i recognise her?
Group living on earth: "At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. 6 At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness. For in the wilderness waters will have burst out, and torrents in the desert plain. 7 And the heat-parched ground will have become as a reedy pool, and the thirsty ground as springs of water. In the abiding place of jackals, a resting-place for [them], there will be green grass with reeds and papyrus plants." (Isaiah 35 5-7)
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
I believe in a 'non-material paradise', and Matthew ch 22 about a widow who'd had seven husbands backs me up to the hilt-
"To the hilt" I like that.
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Jesus was asked-"at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
Jesus replied- "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven" (Matt 22:23-30)


That's clear enough, we become non-material life-forms ("angels") in a non-material paradise..Smile
A rudimentary understanding of the heavenly group. What do you suppose you will be doing there?

Now to the point t hand. God's purpose has all along been to have the earth be inhabited. To suggest otherwise is to perpetrate a lie about God's ability to fulfill His purpose. To claim that souls survive after death in some ethereal realm is to claim God lied about the punishment Adam and Eve would receive. To claim that 'souls' not going to heaven would suffer eternal punishment is to lie about God's quality of love.

You suggested earlier I might be an atheist, and that I might be either mistaken or a liar.

Allegations to which I responded. "This could be fun."
Are you having fun yet?

Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 09:07 pm
@neologist,
Neologist wrote:
Quote:
You suggested earlier I might be an atheist, and that I might be either mistaken or a liar. Allegations to which I responded. "This could be fun."
Are you having fun yet?


Very much, thanks for inviting me to comment in your threads..Smile
A pattern is emerging here; you desperately hop all around the bible like a cat on a hot tin roof to try to patch together verses in support of your claims; for example in your post above you mention Adam/Eve and then Isaiah, but I stick with Jesus who trumps them all, so when he says we become "as angels" in a non-material realm, I believe him..Smile

Also in the pattern is the fact that you shy away from giving direct answers to my questions, for example when I asked if you think my granma will be resurrected in a teenage body, and when I asked if you're an atheist.
Or are you a satanist or crackpot cultist or fairy queen worshipper or what? We'd love to know..Smile

PS- full marks for daring to step in the ring with me but it'll do you no good, tell 'em Rock-
"C'mon, it's true, but that don't bother me, I just wanna prove somethin', I ain't no bum, it don't matter if I lose, don't matter if Romeo opens my head.
The only thing I wanna do is go the distance, that's all.
Nobody's ever gone fifteen rounds with Romeo. If I go them fifteen rounds, an' that bell rings an' I'm still standin', I'm gonna know then I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood"
...
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/rocky1.png
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 09:50 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
.. . Also in the pattern is the fact that you shy away from giving direct answers to my questions, for example when I asked if you think my granma will be resurrected in a teenage body, ....
You didn't understand the reference to Isaiah 35:5-7?
You say Jesus "trumps them all". I say Jesus is in agreement with them all.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 09:54 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
... . and when I asked if you're an atheist.
Or are you a satanist or crackpot cultist or fairy queen worshipper or what? We'd love to know.... .
Your snide argumentum ad hominem is duly noted.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Sep, 2013 10:22 pm
@neologist,
Neologist wrote:
Quote:
You didn't understand the reference to Isaiah 35:5-7?
You say Jesus "trumps them all". I say Jesus is in agreement with them all


Isaiah was simply painting a word-picture of the afterlife in materialistic earthly terms the human mind could understand..Smile
Jesus updated that notion by saying the afterlife is not material but purely spiritual, see, no agreement there.
Isaiah did get one point right though when he said no atheists or nonchristians will be there or it'd be a case of oops there goes the neighbourhood-
"Isaiah 35:8:-And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it.."

So are you an atheist?



 

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