Why I am an athiest

@Finn dAbuzz,

Olivier5 excepted

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Atheism is a belief like abstinence is a sex position.

@Setanta,

My neighbors are Unitarians, and we were kicking it around one night and while we reviewed all the best known Christian religions ( it was mainly a comparative viewpoint on organized religions) and we had a lot of fun.....I said at one point that during the 16th century at lest 3 Christian religions considered other Christians to be heretics and unleashed horrible penalties on those considered to be "heretics". It seems any contrary belief system would vigorously purge less godly people from a flock. Ultimately, so what, believe, don't believe, who cares. I can entertain all viewpoints and be persuaded to believe, not believe, or just be not sure I actually have the world by the short hairs. Does any of this help anyone? Do you get what you need or what you want?w Are you angry if things don't turn out the way you think they should? Well welcome to life, my mother was diagnosed with Altzheimers at 58. Was she the one who was punished, or her husband, her children or was she the one god was pissed at. Well, it's pointless to place blame. It won't help, your Mom still disappears by millimeters until her personality, intelligence, humor, and finally everything that made her, her is erased. I believe in everything and nothing. I don't think any of it matters. I'm glad I had my mom as long as I did, all the rest is crap one group or another is trying to peddle. Don't waste time with worry, just be happy when you can. My apologies to Bobby MacFerron. ( oh crap I hope I spelled his name correctly.).

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@Setanta,

I suppose you are ignorant of the Unitarian Jihad.

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@roger,

Do they aggressively show down the throats of the unsuspecting the message "can't we all just get along?"

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Then you're not an atheist.

If anyone asks me if I believe in God, I say No. If they propose a God which is indistinguishable from Nature, then I explain that that is not my definition of God. If they quibble with my definition of God, then I say they can label me any way they like, but I will continue to not believe in God.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Not believing in Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, and satan, isn't based on belief.

Yes it is, if by 'not believing' you mean 'believing there is no tooth fairy'. Not saying both beliefs are equally irrational, mind you, but clearly you haven't gone through a scientific or rational process to determine that. You believed your parents when they said the tooth fairy existed, and you believed them again once they told you she didn't exist. Or whoever told you.

My point is to rehabilitate belief as a necessary element of life. Some people wrongly believe that they have no belief. That's ridiculous. Our mind could probably not function without them, and in any case we'd be pretty lame human beings without them.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

And actually the existence of a creator God is right up Occam's alley.

Just try to explain how all of this began without the concept of a creator. The assumptions abound.

That is an incorrect usage of Occam's Razor because adding another entity which would also have an unknown source of origin Complicates the argument, it does not simplify it.

The simplest argument is to assume that the Universe itself is the primary point of origin. To argue another entity existed before the Universe simply adds a layer of complexity. And the logical extension of that exercise would lead to an infinite number of gods creating gods creating gods... creating a Universe. Not a pretty picture.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

That is an incorrect usage of Occam's Razor because adding another entity which would also have an unknown source of origin Complicates the argument, it does not simplify it.

The simplest argument is to assume that the Universe itself is the primary point of origin. To argue another entity existed before the Universe simply adds a layer of complexity. And the logical extension of that exercise would lead to an infinite number of gods creating gods creating gods... creating a Universe. Not a pretty picture.

I believe you're right. Occam's razor is the best tool to slash through the prime cause argument.

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@Olivier5,

It's the non-existence of something; belief must have something to believe in.

Not believing there's no santa clause is not based on belief; it's based on our perception of what exists and doesn't exist. For some of us, it's an objective fact, and has nothing to do with "belief."

Quote:

be·lief
/biˈlēf/
Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

It doesn't exist.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Not believing there's no santa clause is not based on belief; it's based on our perception of what exists and doesn't exist. For some of us, it's an objective fact, and has nothing to do with "belief."

An objective fact, huh? As in something you verified empirically? How can you check the nonexistence of something empirically? Did you travel to the north pole to check by yourself that there was no toy factory there?

Or did you just believed your parents when they told you they were the ones buying the gifts?... :-) That parents are the ones giving those gifts is verifiable but rare are the kids who discovered that by themselves. Usually someone tells them, and they decide to believe that person.

The belief that Santa Claus does not exist can be the logical conclusion of some simple reasoning, e.g. it would be impossible for him to do what he is supposed to do, one night is just not enough time when you consider the number of xtian children around. My kid also pointed out (after I broke the sad news to him, but this had been puzzling him for some time) that there are no chimney in our house and that deers don't usually fly so the habitual storyline doesn't work very well... This is common sense put to good use, but not an objective, verifiable fact.

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@Olivier5,

You wrote,

Quote:

How can you check the nonexistence of something empirically?

You answered your own question; how can it be a belief if one is unable to check the nonexistence of something?

You believe that anything you are unable to check the existence of something to be a "belief?" Belief of what?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

My kid also pointed out (after I broke the sad news to him, but this had been puzzling him for some time) that there are no chimney in our house and that deers don't usually fly

They do when they eat these, if you want to see them fly all you've got to do is drink their piss.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-K98112A07xk/Tdq_fchZmyI/AAAAAAAAADY/OIEUwLv8FIU/s1600/Reindeer.jpg

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

You believe that anything you are unable to check the existence of something to be a "belief?" Belief of what?

I define a belief as something one holds true without having verified it empirically. So if you trust that Santa Claus does not exist and you haven't verified that empirically, then that's a belief. By my definition at least. But even if it isn't by your definition, as soon as you lay your definition of belief, I trust I can prove to you that you are not immune from them.

And that's ok. Again, we all harbor many factually-unsupported beliefs. We believe there's such a thing as a future, for instance, though every time we check, it's not around... :-)

What is NOT okay, in my book, is to poke fun at those poor poor believers, as if some of us where oh-so-highly rational that we could do away with belief... In actual fact, we all believe in some thing or another.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
And actually the existence of a creator God is right up Occam's alley.

Just try to explain how all of this began without the concept of a creator. The assumptions abound.
That is an incorrect usage of Occam's Razor because adding another entity which would also have an unknown source of origin Complicates the argument, it does not simplify it.

The simplest argument is to assume that the Universe itself is the primary point of origin. To argue another entity existed before the Universe simply adds a layer of complexity. And the logical extension of that exercise would lead to an infinite number of gods creating gods creating gods... creating a Universe. Not a pretty picture.

Are you asserting nothing exists outside the universe?

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@Olivier5,

That's not a "belief." It's a fact to the person who perceives it.

"I believe in Santa Clause." "I don't believe in Santa Clause." Prove it?
"I believe in Santa Clause." "There is no Santa Clause." It's not a "belief."
It's a fact. I'm married to my wife. That's not a belief, it's a fact. Nobody can prove otherwise.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm married to my wife. That's not a belief, it's a fact. Nobody can prove otherwise.

And I must say we are all relieved to hear that, CI Laughing

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I'm married to my wife. That's not a belief, it's a fact.

I suppose that's indeed a fact, which you could prove with a marriage certificate. (I tend to believe official documents - then of course, they can be forged...) But what POSITIVE proof do you have that Santa does not exist? Is there a government certificate of his non-existence somewhere out there?

Just think about it. Don't reject what I say as a matter of faith. :-)

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

But what POSITIVE proof do you have that Santa does not exist?

The proof I have is just plain common sense. Let's take a good look at the Christmas figure of Santa. He is supposed to fly in a sleigh with reindeer all over the world in one night and you and I both don't have to have proof that reindeer do not fly. Santa does exist in the minds of the very, very young, children who believe in magic. When I was about 5 or 6, the teacher asked the class if we knew who Santa was, and the majority of the class raised their hands saying "your mother and your daddy." I was so disappointed because I wanted to believe in this magical figure called Santa.

In Europe this very visible symbol of Christmas was called Saint Nicholas, or Father Christmas. But I don't have to prove to anyone that Santa Claus is the mythical figure who delivers toys to children around the world each year on Christmas Eve.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

You're explaining yourself very well; what you are saying is that your belief is "subjective," and I agree! Belief and faith are subjective to the individual. What you believe may differ from other people.

1 Reply

Why I am an athiest

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