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Why I am an athiest

Forums: Ok, Athiesm, Religion, Mist, Foolish Christians
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Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 10:31 am
@FBM,
Quote:
I disagree, based on my experience.


How do you know your experience is not pure illusion?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 10:33 am
@Olivier5,
No different than your ability to work on your keyboard to post on a2k.

Without some reality, you wouldn't be able to accomplish this simple task, and you wouldn't be able to communicate with others.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 10:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
I am aware of that, but apparently FBM still harbors naive beliefs about his senses. He needs to rip himself of yet another belief, however commonsensical : that our senses tell us something about the world.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 10:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
Here's a good one!
Quote:
"The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable."
igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 03:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Here's a good one!
Quote:
"The truth will set you free, but first it will make you miserable."


It is a good one! Was the author his speech writer or himself? Never mind it's a good quote... and reminds me of, "The darkest hour is just before the dawn". But I guess it's like travelling... all is uncertain until you arrive Wink
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 05:26 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I disagree, based on my experience.


How do you know your experience is not pure illusion?


I don't claim to know whether they are or not. I don't have much choice but to react to them.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 05:32 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
An unnecessary leap of faith, as far as I can tell. That sort of thing leads to belief in souls and gods and heavens and hells, etc etc, in my experience.


That's were you are just too fearful of beliefs. Belief in the existence of a physical world is necessary to live in this world, and does not lead to belief in metaphysics.


You have yet to prove that, either by logic or with empirical evidence. So far this looks like just a bold assertion. As far as I know, the rest of the animal kingdom does quite well sans beliefs.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 06:08 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Olivier5: That's were you are just too fearful of beliefs. Belief in the existence of a physical world is necessary to live in this world, and does not lead to belief in metaphysics.

FBM: As far as I know, the rest of the animal kingdom does quite well sans beliefs.


Olivier5: and you know that how? Until you decide to trust your senses, you don't even know that anything exists, including animals, remember?
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 06:13 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
FBM: I disagree, based on my experience.

O5: How do you know your experience is not pure illusion?

FBM: I don't claim to know whether they are or not. I don't have much choice but to react to them.


O5: If you can suspend judgement, you can decide not to trust your senses.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 06:30 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
O5: How do you know your experience is not pure illusion?


For the same reason your responses are not illusions.

Quote:
il·lu·sion
/iˈlo͞oZHən/
Noun
A false idea or belief: "he had no illusions about her".
A deceptive appearance or impression: "the illusion of togetherness".
Synonyms
delusion - hallucination - phantasm - phantom - mirage
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 06:31 pm
@igm,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viJGpXvk_9Q
  
Tom Waits - San Diego Serenade

I never saw the morning 'til I stayed up all night
I never saw the sunshine 'til I turned out the light
I never saw my hometown until I stayed away too long
I never heard the melody, until I needed a song.

I never saw the white line, 'til I was leaving you behind 
I never knew I needed you 'til I was caught up in a bind
I never spoke 'I love you' 'til I cursed you in vain,
I never felt my heartstrings until I nearly went insane.

I never saw the East Coast 'til I move to the West
I never saw the moonlight until it shone off your breast
I never saw your heart 'til someone tried to steal it away
I never saw your tears until they rolled down your face.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 06:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
In fact, we all trust our senses by instinct, and only later learn that they can be deceptive. But any attempt to doubt them systematically probably leads to grave schyzophrenia. It's possible but leads to madness. Lack of belief in space and time is likewise pretty tough on one's mental health, as you would imagine... These are two other instinctive beliefs.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:05 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Olivier5: That's were you are just too fearful of beliefs. Belief in the existence of a physical world is necessary to live in this world, and does not lead to belief in metaphysics.

FBM: As far as I know, the rest of the animal kingdom does quite well sans beliefs.


Olivier5: and you know that how? Until you decide to trust your senses, you don't even know that anything exists, including animals, remember?


Read carefully. "As far as I know" is a disclaimer, and admission to incomplete understanding.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:07 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

In fact, we all trust our senses by instinct, and only later learn that they can be deceptive. But any attempt to doubt them systematically probably leads to grave schyzophrenia. It's possible but leads to madness. Lack of belief in space and time is likewise pretty tough on one's mental health, as you would imagine... These are two other instinctive beliefs.


Are you saying that all Pyrrhonists who've ever lived have gone insane?
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:15 pm
@FBM,
You have a list of names? Should be easy: the total number of die-hard Pyrrhonists since the dawn of time can probably be written with a single digit...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:25 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Read carefully. "As far as I know" is a disclaimer, and admission to incomplete understanding.


Think carefuly: what understanding, however incomplete, would you have of animals if you didn't trust your senses, however incompletly?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:25 pm
@Olivier5,
We are instinctive animals, but also the product of our culture, experiences, and environment.

Most Americans are not aware, but being born in the US, especially during our generation, has provided us with many opportunities not available to most on this planet. Most of our education was free, and the opportunities to work were extensive compared to world standards.

Realities can differ by degrees depending on where one is born, lives, and dies.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:30 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Read carefully. "As far as I know" is a disclaimer, and admission to incomplete understanding.


Think carefuly: what understanding, however incomplete, would you have of animals if you didn't trust your senses, however incompletly?


We've already covered this. Pyrrhonism doesn't advocate denying sensory input.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:36 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
We've already covered this. Pyrrhonism doesn't advocate denying sensory input.


Two tiny points of clarification though:

1) what does this mean? Does it mean not denying the sensation, or not denying the object in the real world, the REFERENT?
2) if the latter (i.e. if indeed Pyrrhonists "trust their senses" in my understanding of the expression), why? Why don't they doubt heir senses? Certainly, by the Pyrrhonist procedure, our senses can reasonnably be doubted.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 May, 2013 07:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
We are instinctive animals, but also the product of our culture, experiences, and environment.

Most Americans are not aware, but being born in the US, especially during our generation, has provided us with many opportunities not available to most on this planet. Most of our education was free, and the opportunities to work were extensive compared to world standards.

Realities can differ by degrees depending on where one is born, lives, and dies.


I am a great believer in human instincts but I agree.

This world is what we make of it, and I don't think it needs more Pyrrhonism, or any other form of nihilism. It needs something a little more positive than that... :-)
 

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