Why I am an athiest

@igm,

Quote:

It's a paradox... we can't discuss a paradox... and I've examined the issues we are likely to discuss if we allow the notion of duration... it leads IMHO to a dead end... in the end... live life embracing the paradox... I guess that's what meditation helps with... or maybe it doesn't...

It is only a paradox because you have decided, against logic, to consider all beliefs bad (even the belief that all beliefs are bad is bad... but then... another paradox). That leads to contradictions. But if you consider some beliefs useful, there is no need for contradiction nor paradox.

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@Olivier5,

For day-to-day life use contemporary modes of communication but remember they are just that... to believe a belief represents the true nature of reality is what should be avoided... but I'm only expressing my own mode of communication hopefully in a contemporary and understandable way...

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@igm,

You must also have "belief" that what you're typing on your keyboard is being posted to a2k for others to read. That's very real - isn't it?

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@cicerone imposter,

From a day-to-day perspective it's as real as it needs to be... ask a QM scientist about what's fundamentally real... I'm talking about how things stand up to microscopic scrutiny e.g. like the notion of permanence, duration etc...when we are surrounded by examples of impermanence... all the way down.

You ci can live your life using the day-to-day perspective. Some want to go deeper for one reason or another.. both valid ways of living.. both harmless.

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@igm,

Let's go fly some planes into some buildings in order to convert everyone to Pyrrhonism. Wink

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@igm,

Quote:

to believe a belief represents the true nature of reality is what should be avoided...

I agree, since the true nature of reality cannot be known. But we entertain many useful beliefs about other things than the true nature of reality, such as beliefs about whether reality exist or not in the first place. This says nothing about its true nature, rather it's a yes or no question allowing us to move forward. If nothing exists, then on what are you typing your posts?

Shying away from beliefs that have nothing to do with metaphysics is simply irrational, and leads to many paradoxes.

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@igm,

I suppose so, but I find it fascinating that "what's so obvious" is transformed into "does reality exist?"

Our reality is our (limited) perceptions, observations, and actions. Those are the FACTS of life on this planet.

To prove that our perceptions are limited, all one needs to do is compare our limited senses to other animals. The only advantage humans have is our ability to record history, communicate through languages, and create things from the "raw" materials available to us.

We are limited by our biology and environment. That we can send instruments to mars is an achievement of man that truly confirms our "reality."

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@Olivier5,

Reality cannot be said to be non-existent because it appears. That does not mean that the opposite must then be the case because as you say the true nature of reality is ineffable.

Day-to-day we live our lives and converse and interact with others conventionally but we should never believe that is the ultimate way things are... IMO... as far as I can tell.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

Reality cannot be said to be non-existent because it appears. That does not mean that the opposite must then be the case because as you say the true nature of reality is ineffable.

If Kuzminski is right, this is where the Pyrrhonists differed from the dogmatic skeptics. The dogmatic skeptics denied that knowledge is possible, while the Pyrrhonists suspended any such judgement, pointing to the equipollence of the a priori arguments.

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@cicerone imposter,

That's one way of looking at it and it is perfectly reasonable. I am not saying reality does not exist... I'm just saying that if a list was made of what reality would have to be in order to be 'truly' existent then under scrutiny it wouldn't hold up to that scrutiny. QM asserts much the same thing.

Reality appears so it is not non-existent. Reality is something that cannot be explained by the terms existent or non-existent. Just like wave particle duality cannot be explained in terms of waves or particles.

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@FBM,

Quote:

Reality cannot be said to be non-existent because it appears.

Only if you believe your senses.

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@Olivier5,

Again, no belief is required of immediate experience. It's there.

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@FBM,

FBM wrote:

igm wrote:

Reality cannot be said to be non-existent because it appears. That does not mean that the opposite must then be the case because as you say the true nature of reality is ineffable.

If Kuzminski is right, this is where the Pyrrhonists differed from the dogmatic skeptics. The dogmatic skeptics denied that knowledge is possible, while the Pyrrhonists suspended any such judgement, pointing to the equipollence of the a priori arguments.

If you suspend judgement... does knowledge arise or not? Surely it is impossible until it arises and then it is known to be possible. If it is possible and that can be shown then dogmatic skepticism is refuted... have you refuted it?

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@igm,

igm wrote:

If you suspend judgement... does knowledge arise or not? Surely it is impossible until it arises and then it is known to be possible. If it is possible and that can be shown then dogmatic skepticism is refuted... have you refuted it?

I may not understand your point precisely, so I apologize if my response is off-target. While judgement is suspended, the search for certainty goes on. The only data that I know of that is available to anyone is subjective, limited, first-hand experience. What does that experience mean? I'm not sure that it can ever mean absolute knowledge of Truth, but maybe it could. I have yet to experience everything, so I'm open to either possibility. I have yet to refute anything metaphysical with absolute certainty. The best I can do so far is point out how absolute metaphysical claims can be reasonably doubted by reasonable minds.

Sorry if that doesn't address your point. I don't think I comprehended it perfectly.

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@FBM,

Quote:

Again, no belief is required of immediate experience. It's there.

The experience is there. The referent has to be inferred from experience. It takes a leap of faith in our senses telling us something about reality.

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@Olivier5,

An unnecessary leap of faith, as far as I can tell. If unchecked, that sort of approach leads to belief in souls and gods and heavens and hells, etc etc, in my experience. Assertions about things that I haven't experienced. Useless until I do.

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@FBM,

Quote:

An unnecessary leap of faith, as far as I can tell. That sort of thing leads to belief in souls and gods and heavens and hells, etc etc, in my experience.

That's were you are just too fearful of beliefs. Belief in the existence of a physical world is necessary to live in this world, and does not lead to belief in metaphysics.

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@FBM,

That will do... thanks!

Your path is not - quite the same as mine - in that there is a continual search for certainty on your part and I prefer to rest in uncertainty based on not seeing how certainty can be achieved and then seeing what happens.... whilst still be able to live a normal life with this underlying practice hidden but definitely not a handicap to either the practice or everyday life.

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@Olivier5,

I disagree, based on my experience. Physicality fades the closer you look at it. Singular entities become composites, and if physicists are right, those components fade into uncertainties. I don't know that physicists are right about that, but I'm overwhelmed by their mass of evidence. To the point that I humbly admit that I don't know.

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@igm,

No worries. My continued search is not feverish. I just keep my mind open to new data, much like careful scientists do. Not sure if absolute certainty will ever be achieved, but not denying the possibility and not taking the feel-good shortcut to belief, either. Smile

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