Criminal Complaint - US vs Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I have very little problem with all the cameras...and with the technology that allows the police to investigate in ways never thought of before. Jack the Ripper would have had one hell of a time doing his thing in today's downtown London!

A huge part of a safe society...involves each individual giving up some of the privacy we all want to enjoy!

I must have been at a very impressionable age when I watched 1984 in english class because it impressed the hell out of me. As someone who leans libertarian I take offense at an attitude of "only bad guys have something to hide" and that being concerned about privacy issues means one must have something to hide.

I don't blame you...and I certainly never said that only the bad guys have something to hide.

I did say that a huge part of a safe society...involves each individual giving up some of the privacy we all want to enjoy.

I might add that a huge part of a functioning society...involves each individual giving up some of the individual freedom we all want to enjoy.

But there is a hell of a lot of distance between reasonable concessions of personal privacy and individual freedoms in order to insure a safe, functioning society...and the Big Brotherism of 1984.

You are entitled to your "libertarianism", JPB, but at the "expense" of my entitlement to disagree strongly with it.

0 Replies

@engineer,

Reading a suspect their rights isn't designed to protect the rights of the accused; the accused always have their Fifth Amendment (and other) rights.

Reading a suspect their rights protects the police and the prosecutorial process. "Say these magic words, and we will assume that the confession is not coerced."

By delaying reading him the Miranda card, the DOJ is simply gambling that they have enough to convict even if his interrogation is thrown out of court and/or that the "imminent threat" exemption will apply and evidence gathered during the interrogation will still be admissible.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

One of the reasons for the prison in Cuba was that it avoided the provisions of the fifth amendment, which is not solely about self-incrimination.

Yup. Courts have ruled that the rights of the Constitution apply to non-US-citizens if they are in the US. The whole point of setting up the detention center at Guantanamo was to avoid having the detainees in a US jurisdiction.

0 Replies

I bet it's gonna be tough seating an impartial jury.

1 Reply

@George,

Not if they get a change of venue . . . to, oh, i don't know . . . maybe Alpha Centauri?

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

Well, that's the point. Ivan Demianchuck (sp.? but remember him?) had his citizenship revoked because it was found that he had lied about having been in the German army during WW II.

Not to change the subject, but I think it was because he was an SS guard at Treblinka or one of the other camps.
Thats what he lied about, I dont think being in the German army itself was a disqualifier to getting US citizenship, but I admit Im not sure.

2 Replies

@mysteryman,

I'm thinking there are many things that would not be reason for disqualification, but lying about them on the application would be. It's a form of fraud.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Well, that's the point. Ivan Demianchuck (sp.? but remember him?) had his citizenship revoked because it was found that he had lied about having been in the German army during WW II.

Not to change the subject, but I think it was because he was an SS guard at Treblinka or one of the other camps.
Thats what he lied about, I dont think being in the German army itself was a disqualifier to getting US citizenship, but I admit Im not sure.

I'm not sure whether it would or wouldn't be a disqualifier back in the 1950s but he did lie about it in order to get an immigrant's visa (no Green Cards back then). So soon after the end of WW II the US was reluctant to admit former Wehrmacht soldiers as immigrants. The restrictions were loosened in short order and only former Nazi Party members were excluded. The point is, he was originally stripped of his citizenship for lying, then extradited and deported to stand trial on the charges of the war crimes. The alleged war crimes themselves were not (if I remember correctly) the basis for stripping him of citizenship. The lies were.

1 Reply

@roger,

roger wrote:

I'm thinking there are many things that would not be reason for disqualification, but lying about them on the application would be. It's a form of fraud.

Exactly. I wrote my answer to Mysteryman before reading your post.

0 Replies

@Setanta,

We were talking about this and thinking it'd be these guys, as they're likely the only people in North America who don't know anything about the matter.

1 Reply

@jespah,

Ayuh

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

i

Quote:

t disturbs me that our state of surveillance is such that we can track an individual walking down a city street at this level.

I do not have a large problem with cameras in public places with special note it took a lot of manpower to tied in all those public and private cameras so it is not yet a tool to be able to track a large percent of the population in real time.

I do have problem with things like your ISP monitoring and recording your actions and traffic on the internet not only for the benefit of law enforcement without a warrant in many cases but also for the benefit of such private outfits such as the RIAA.

Love the idea of someone I am paying money to monitoring my traffic for the benefit of such groups and even having agreements to punish you with less service if you do anything they do not like.

Thank god for such technology as TOR and VPNs however sadly most people do not know how to protect their privacy on the internet.

0 Replies

@Butrflynet,

It's the strategy for current sleeper cells.

0 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

Ivan Demianchuck (sp.? but remember him?) had his citizenship revoked because it was found that he had lied about having been in the German army during WW II.

More of that appalling American hypocrisy, Merry.

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

Reading a suspect their rights isn't designed to protect the rights of the accused; the accused always have their Fifth Amendment (and other) rights.

You don't know much about Miranda, do you, DD?

0 Replies

I just read elsewhere that the number of officials who think Tsarmaev shouldn't have been Mirandized is growing. Guiliani is apparently screaming mad at the judge who ordered the interrogation stopped. The only reference I have is a Newsmax source that I saw on FB. Newxmax is propaganda city so I won't link it, but the right is apparently angry that we're treating this citizen as... you know... a citizen.

1 Reply

@Butrflynet,

Quote:

Watch the US justice system and constitution implode upon itself from all the infighting it will generate as people debate over whether or not you are afforded all the protections of citizenship after executing one of your plots.

I appreciate that concern, BFN, because the US has repeatedly shown itself to be incapable of debating any tough issues. Look seriously at what was never learned from Watergate. Nixon, the criminal, was speedily given a pardon. Ford didn't even wait, like most presidents, until he was leaving office. It was a preemptive, meant to shut down any prosecutions of Nixon.

And why would that be necessary, given the oft repeated canard for and in the US that "no one is above the law"?

Fast forward to the Reagan administration. Felons galore and most of them skated. War crimes galore and they all skated. The boss of all this murder and mayhem, [Reagan] which differed from what Mafia gangs do not at all, was untouched. Even the US media gave him a compete free pass.

Your "justice" system and your constitution should most definitely implode if it doesn't have the ability to deal with these issues. Recent history [and not so recent history] tells us, sadly, that you don't have what it takes to do this in accordance with what are supposed to be CORE American principles.

Obama doesn't even mention the war crimes and the terrorist actions of the Bush gang, but even on the torture issue, what happens - another free pass for the criminals/felons.

But, let it be noted that the US justice system is ever vigilant on cracking down on those on the wrong side of the political alley, who get blow jobs while in office.

Quote:

Can you be a protected U.S. citizen while being a devout practitioner of a religious sect that seeks to destroy the U.S.?

Obviously, yes. I think Engineer pointed to some good examples.

But this "seeks to destroy the US" is nonsense. If the US stopped its terrorist activities against, not just the people of the Middle East, there would be no one interested in doing anything untoward towards the US.

The US has been committing egregious acts of terrorism against Cuba for half a century. Has Cuba attacked the US? No, Cuba, as any good citizen country of the world, sought and still seeks to stop the US by using the rule of law.

Compare Cuba's actions to those of the US for the last half century, forgetting for a moment all the myriad countries the US has done the same to, and focus just on Cuba.

0 Replies

@JPB,

Quote:

But, as a nation of laws who supposedly prides itself on the rule of due process, how can we judge?

Illegal rendition, Guantanamo, torture, CIA terrorism, ... .

I think your statement above, is not one that you can take any solace or pride in, JPB.

0 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

Quote:

Ivan Demianchuck (sp.? but remember him?) had his citizenship revoked because it was found that he had lied about having been in the German army during WW II.

John Demjanjuk

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I have very little problem with all the cameras...and with the technology that allows the police to investigate in ways never thought of before. Jack the Ripper would have had one hell of a time doing his thing in today's downtown London!

Would cameras be a good thing in US government offices, Frank? Just think of the number of crimes that could be prevented/could have been prevented, the deaths that could be prevented/could have been prevented, if the CIA had cameras on them.

0 Replies

Criminal Complaint - US vs Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know