Attack on Hamas step toward peace

You do realize that the US administration, one of the most favorable to Israel in history, condemns the attack right?

It places the supporters of this attack at an even more extreme position.

Yes, I understand that. Extreme situations require extreme answers.

Ah, to be six-years-old again, when everything was so simple: the world was good and evil, black and white, right or wrong. The McGentrix posts above are a testament to the fact that some of us are still young - at mind, if not at heart. Thanks for taking me back, homie.

Helpfull hint: To support the Israeli measures against the Palestinians is too support the oppression and subjucation of an entire people based on the action of an isolated group of radicals. This is wrong. It is also exceedingly dumb, as such measures only serve to increase the resentment that fuels organizations like Hamas in the first place.

Toodles.

I realize you would have the world cower before the islamic fundamentalists that you contiuously defend, but thankfully, not everyone in the world has the lack of fortitude that you display in your daily defense of terrorists.

Your wish to placate the terrorist makes me want to puke.

To know that Israel (and McGentrix) is dead wrong, one only has to look at history.

Israel has been doing pretty much the same for the past 50 or so years. They maintain a repressive occupation, use brutal force and retaliate quickly without regard to due process or civilian damage.

As a result Israel faces the daily threat of terrorism.

Europe has remained very thoughtful and democratic. They resist to use torture or collective punishment. They have acknowledge the plight of both sides of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

As a result Europe has faced relatively little terrorism.

Sure, terrorism is unfortunately a fact of life in these time. Europe has faced terrorism from its own separatists and from its support of the US (which has made itself an integral part of the conflict in the Middle East).

But I would sure as hell feel a lot safer in Spain or even France right now than I would in Israel.

The policies of Israel are not only morally bankrupt, they are completely devoid of reason. The policies of Europe are more ethical and more intelligent.

50 years of Israeli history should tell you this. Why they persist their brutal occupation in the face of such moral, phychological and economic costs is beyond comprehension.

And your other post was so much more balanced...

Israel faces terroism every day because it exists. No other reason. merely because it exists. Anyone that understands this, yet still wants to pretend that it's Israel's fault for organization's like hamas and the PLO and every other anti-Israel terror group in the middle east has a very large gap in reasoning.

It's like saying the KKK exists because balck people can vote. It's just not true.

You say the policies of Israel are bankrupt, yet I have yet to see you attack Hamas or Arafat or any other organization that has terror ties. Instead, you blame the Israeli's for defending themselves from ruthless hatemongers like Hamas.

They only ones morally bankrupt are those that would defend terrorists.

That's like saying a burgular is threatened at gun point by the home owner simply because he exists, neglecting to mention that at the time he's "existing" on someone else's property with the intent to take more.

Do you honestly think that anything less than a complete disintegration of Israel will halt the terrorism they face?

Yes, though I do agree that there are those who do wish for precisely that.

But that really has nothing at all to do with your statement, which was that there is "no other reason" that Israel faces terrorism.

It's more than a bit simplistic, to anme but one reason that Israel faces terrorism could be the fact that it's perfectly willing to kill more civilians than the Palestinians do, under the pretext of defense.

I never defend terrorists. I never favor "appeasement." That you think I do only exposes your simplemindedness, McGentrix.

The traditional counter-argument to that is that for every successfull suicide bomber, something like 100 (can't remember exact stat) are foiled. Thus, they argue that the moral culpability is the same, which justifies Israeli actions.

That is belied by the fact that Israel intentionally rejects easier ways to secure their security.

They refuse to simply seal the border, using the pretext that the Palestinians would suffer without the jobs. This pretext rings hollow when the more zealous Israelis make clear that the reason they do not wish to seal the border is because they do not wish for it to become a de facto border.

They make very clear that they are opposed to measures that would improve Israeli security simply because it would preclude expansion.

Those Israelis who lobby hard to keep their countrymen at risk for their religious dream of territorial conquest are morally culpable for the situation.

If Israel were to withdraw to their own borders and seal them the attacks would fall DRAMATICALLY.

According to the US Department of State

HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)

Description
Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. HAMAS's strength is concentrated in the Gaza Strip and a few areas of the West Bank. Also has engaged in peaceful political activity, such as running candidates in West Bank Chamber of Commerce elections.

Activities
HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks--including large-scale suicide bombings--against Israeli civilian and military targets. In the early 1990s, they also targeted suspected Palestinian collaborators and Fatah rivals. Claimed several attacks during the unrest in late 2000.

Strength
Unknown number of hard-core members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.

Location/Area of Operation
Primarily the occupied territories, Israel. In August 1999, Jordanian authorities closed the group's Political Bureau offices in Amman, arrested its leaders, and prohibited the group from operating on Jordanian territory.

External Aid
Receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activities take place in Western Europe and North America.

This is a logically ridiculous premise. There are many countries that exist that do not face terrorism. There must be another reason.

Israel is responsible for its own actions. It is Israel's fault that it maintains an illegal brutal occupation. It is Israel's fault that it represses an occupied people with very little political voice. It is Israel's fault that it keeps expanding the settlement. It is Israel's fault that it has not withdrawn to the 1967 borders or offered that Palestinians a viable state.

Of course the Palestinians are responsible for their own actions. It is the Palestinians fault that they have stooped to using suicide attacks against civilians. It is the Palestinians fault that they have not supported a non-violent, democratic leadership.

What is sad is that either side could stop this cycle of violence unilaterally. Neither seems to want to. The dramatic assassination is a stop away from peace (that happens to be Israel's fault).

The conflict is the fault of the people who support violence -- whether they be Hamas, Israeli or A2K members.



I have said and I will always say that the policies of Hamas and Arafat are bankrupt. I do not support the brutal acts of either side.

I don't support the brutality of Hamas any more than I support the brutality of the Israeli governement.

You are condemning half of the ruthless hatemongering.

I oppose all ruthless hatemongering.

McGentrix


I don't know excactly, why you choose this old version and not the latest (by US Department of State), but you certainly may have reasons for it (actually, they don't differ that much).

McG,

So you cite Hamas's desire to seize Israeli land. I can cite the ruling Israeli party doing the same about the Palestinian territories.

Not some terrorist group, the ruling governmental party voted never to allow a Palestinian state west of Jordan.

It's the same idiocy.

Not to seize Israeli land, but to eliminate Israel.

Show me the Israeli party doing the same thing and using the same tactics. I am definitely interested in seeing that.

I'm ever so slightly starting to warm over to your side of this debate ebrown, but I think this statement is a bit absurd. Random strangers meeting up on the internet to debate international politics are not a fault for the violence. The people in power making the decisions to engage in violence are at fault for the violence.