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Bush's Meandering Moral Compass

 
 
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 10:43 am
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 921 • Replies: 18
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doglover
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 12:49 pm
Re: Bush's Meandering Moral Compass
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
COMMENTARY - Los Angeles Times
Bush's Meandering Moral Compass
By Peter Singer
March 25, 2004
In the presidential election that brought George W. Bush to power, the moral character of the candidates was a significant factor with some voters. Among those who rated honesty as an important factor influencing their choice of candidate, 80% said they voted for Bush. These voters were disgusted with Bill Clinton, not only for his sexual relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky but for lying about it. They wanted someone to bring sound ethical values to the White House and believed that Bush was the man to do it. What have the last three years told us about Bush's ethics?

I was one of those voters who wanted a president who I believed had high morals and was of good character. I voted for GW Bush on that basis. I have since found out how terribly wrong I was. I learned that I shouldn't judge a man's character based solely on the fact that he doesn't get bj's from a woman other than his wife.
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The discrepancies between Bush's prewar claims about weapons of mass destruction and the postwar reality have convinced many that they know the answer to this question. But let's give him the benefit of the doubt about the intelligence on Iraq and look to other issues. Do Bush's statements and actions reflect a coherent, defensible ethic?

An ethical man would admit that he made a mistake....for whatever the reason. GW Bush is too stubborn and filled with machismo to admit he was wrong. Instead, he continues to lie for a myriad of reasons.
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First, what does Bush think about the proper reach of the federal government? In his preelection memoir, "A Charge to Keep," he was eloquent about his support for states' rights, individual freedom and small government. He contrasted that with "a philosophy that seeks solutions from distant bureaucracies" and added, "I am a conservative because I believe government closest to the people governs best."

Obviously, Bush thinks it is proper for the federal govt to tell people who they can and cannot marry, who they can and cannot sleep with, that having God in ones life is mandatory if one is to be complete, that govt should have the authority to decide for broadcasters what is obscene...what should and should not be allowed on our airwaves. Bush pulled the wool over many voters eyes in 2000. He won't do it again in 2004.
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Again and again during the campaign he hammered that theme. On the "Larry King Show," in response to a question about a hypothetical state vote on gay marriage, he replied: "The states can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this states' issue."

Sure, that's why he wants to amend the constitution banning marriage between two people of the same sex.
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Yet in office, Bush has done just the opposite of what he said he would do. The Patriot Act has given the federal government unprecedented powers over American citizens. Arguably, that legislation may be justified by the need to combat terrorism. But no such justification exists for Bush's support for a constitutional amendment to rule out gay marriage. Here, his stated reason for this proposal is to curb "judicial activism." And what about attempts by his attorney general to overturn Oregon's law permitting physician-assisted suicide and to fight against state decisions allowing the use of marijuana for medical purposes? These changes were brought in at the ballot box, by the state's voters.

The attorney general, John Ashcroft is every bit as dangerous as Bush is.
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When the surplus evaporated and turned into a huge deficit, however, Bush did not reverse his arguments. Instead, he simply switched ground, defending a further tax cut on a completely new basis: that it would benefit the economy. But now a tax cut was not letting the American people spend their own money; it was letting this generation of Americans spend the money of future generations.

Bush is only concerned with today. To hell with the future and the huge deficit our children will inherit.
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Pandering to his right wing Christian conservative base. Rolling Eyes
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Bush is very 'selective' in the lives he believes are of value and those whom he believes are expendable. He's a dangerous and pathetic excuse of a man. Most certainly, Bush is the worst president of my lifetime.
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When he focuses on human embryos, he speaks of his obligation to foster and encourage respect for life, but when respect for human life gets in the way of his wish to strike back at those he considers enemies of the United States, he is willing to bring about the deaths of thousands of innocent human beings. These are not the actions of a person of principle.

They are the actions of an egocentric madman.
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In an interview with journalist Bob Woodward, Bush repeatedly referred to his "instincts" or "instinctive reactions" and said: "I'm not a textbook player. I'm a gut player." That may be true. The problem is that Bush's moral instincts seem to allow him to sway in whatever direction seems most convenient.

Don't forget. Bush is a president who believes that he was 'ordained by God' to be president and who believes that God 'speaks to him' on a daily basis. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:20 pm
Re: Bush's Meandering Moral Compass
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Presidents have been making war since John Hancock presided over the Continental Congress, and rulers have been doing so since the dawn of our species, if not before. Fighting a war is not some bizarre new invention of Bush's. Any president who sends troops to any but the tiniest war, will produce death tolls comparable to or greater than the ones you quote. Just because a president commits troops to a war, does not mean that he doesn't respect the sanctity of life. If you make that judgement against Bush, you need to make it against other rulers who have committed troops to war. I am not particularly aware that the military tactics used in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are any more cavalier concerning the lives of bystanders than the tactics used in other wars that have been fought during the last century or two.
0 Replies
 
suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:24 pm
Oh, come on!
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:32 pm
suzy wrote:
Oh, come on!

If you have an argument, make it, and stick to the point, please.
0 Replies
 
doglover
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:32 pm
Re: Bush's Meandering Moral Compass
Brandon9000 wrote:
Presidents have been making war since John Hancock presided over the Continental Congress, and rulers have been doing so since the dawn of our species, if not before. Fighting a war is not some bizarre new invention of Bush's. Any president who sends troops to any but the tiniest war, will produce death tolls comparable to or greater than the ones you quote. Just because a president commits troops to a war, does not mean that he doesn't respect the sanctity of life. If you make that judgement against Bush, you need to make it against other rulers who have committed troops to war.


The difference with Bush taking this country into war with Iraq and other wars that past presidents have taken us into is the fact that the war in Iraq was predicated on lies and bad intelligence. In the history of the United States, we have never gone to war under false pretense as we have in Iraq. It is my opinion, that GW Bush should have war crimes charges brought against him. Bush doesn't respect the sanctity of life. His cavalier attitude and jokes made in poor taste last night at the dinner in Washington is an example of that. I can and will make a judgement against Bush because has earned it.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:39 pm
So Bush doesn't want abortions or Stem cell research done on human embyo's because he has no respect for the sanctity of life?
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:42 pm
Re: Bush's Meandering Moral Compass
doglover wrote:

The difference with Bush taking this country into war with Iraq and other wars that past presidents have taken us into is the fact that the war in Iraq was predicated on lies and bad intelligence. In the history of the United States, we have never gone to war under false pretense as we have in Iraq.

First of all, I doubt your statement about history. Secondly, please tell me one of the lies involved. And, since I know I'd better specify this, obvious though it is, subjective statements of opinion are not lies, speculations about what is likely in the future that later turn out to be incorrect are not lies, and genuine mistakes made in good faith are not lies.

doglover wrote:
It is my opinion, that GW Bush should have war crimes charges brought against him.

What specific prosecutable war crimes are you alluding to? If possible, refer to Geneva Convention or other treaty violations.

doglover wrote:
Bush doesn't respect the sanctity of life. His cavalier attitude and jokes made in poor taste last night at the dinner in Washington is an example of that. I can and will make a judgement against Bush because has earned it.

A previous poster seemed to indicate that the mere fact that Bush has committed troops to war and people have died indicates that he does not respect life, and I answered that since the commission of troops to war and this level of casualty is exceedingly common, it cannot be taken of evidence of any such thing.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:46 pm
The Mexican-American War was the first major conflict driven by the idea of "Manifest Destiny"; the belief that America had a God-given right, or destiny. After engineers advised James Gadsden that the most direct and practicable route for the Southern transcontinental railroad would be south of the United States boundary, he made plans to have the Federal Government acquire title to the necessary territory from Mexico. Through his friend and fellow empire dreamer, Secretary of War Jefferson Davis. Gadsden was appointed U.S. Minister to Mexico by President Franklin Pierce with instructions of his own design to buy from Mexico enough territory for a railroad to the Gulf of California.
It was a perfect setup. By the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, signed February 2, 1848, at the close of the Mexican War, the Republic of Mexico was compelled to abandon its claim to Texas and to cede to the United States the territory now comprising most of New Mexico, Arizona, California, Colorado, Utah and Nevada. The territory ceded to the United States by Mexico constituted about 200,000 square miles or two-fifths of all her territory.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 01:57 pm
Re: Bush's Meandering Moral Compass
Brandon9000 wrote:
I am not particularly aware that the military tactics used in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are any more cavalier concerning the lives of bystanders than the tactics used in other wars that have been fought during the last century or two.
On the contrary: the "smart technology" deployed in both theater's are allowing less collateral damage than ever before. I would state without hesitation that the tactics we used in Iraq are more considerate of innocent human life than any invading Army of the past. Please challenge this statement only if you can provide some evidence of an invasion with more concern for civilians.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 02:12 pm
Re: Bush's Meandering Moral Compass
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
I am not particularly aware that the military tactics used in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are any more cavalier concerning the lives of bystanders than the tactics used in other wars that have been fought during the last century or two.
On the contrary: the "smart technology" deployed in both theater's are allowing less collateral damage than ever before.

You really believe this, don't you. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
I would state without hesitation that the tactics we used in Iraq are more considerate of innocent human life than any invading Army of the past.

So, do you do those amateur stand up comedy nights?

Quote:
Please challenge this statement only if you can provide some evidence of an invasion with more concern for civilians.

Hmmmm... WWII comes immediately to mind.
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Titus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 02:15 pm
Hi Bumble Bee:

Great article -- thanks.

Bush's 'moral compass' redirects me back to the now infamous quote attributed to him by a former professor he had at Yale.

Regarding poor people, Bush opined in class, "people are poor because they're lazy."

Bush went yachting later that day. :wink:
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 02:29 pm
Bob, surely you can't be serious. Shocked You chose the only war in history where cities were obliterated by nuclear weapons as the one with greater concern for civilian life? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Seriously though. Try to name the conflict and describe why the tactics used demonstrated a greater concernÂ… or concede to the truth. :wink:
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 02:59 pm
WWII was planned with reconstruction of the axis nations in mind (Yalta Conference). In addition, post war activities by the allies showed tremendous concern for the civillian populations. When one considres the activities of allied forces in recently liberated France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc.. my point is even forther emphasized. Your ignorance of the historical record is not my problem.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 03:01 pm
Quote:
I would state without hesitation that the tactics we used in Iraq are more considerate of innocent human life than any invading Army of the past.

I would bet that the civilans who were killed in each (failed) attmept to kill Hussein by precision guided munitions would beg to differ, as would the chidren who are still being killed and maimed by cluster bomblets.
NB: I am not saying the Iraq conflict is worse, just not any different!
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 03:44 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I would state without hesitation that the tactics we used in Iraq are more considerate of innocent human life than any invading Army of the past.

I would bet that the civilans who were killed in each (failed) attmept to kill Hussein by precision guided munitions would beg to differ, as would the chidren who are still being killed and maimed by cluster bomblets.
NB: I am not saying the Iraq conflict is worse, just not any different!

They probably would, but then again, we are talking about percentages, probabilities, kill rates, etc., not anecdotes about individuals. I agree that every human life is very, very important, but on an analytical level, you seem to be asserting that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have employed tactical approaches which produce bystander casualties in some sense greater than in WW2. You have utterly failed to provide any numbers, percentages, other quantitative data, or analysis to support this. Comments about stand-up comedy are mere distractions that do not assist in demonstrating that the numbers were in some sense worse in these two recent conflicts. Don't make the assertion if you can't back it up.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 03:45 pm
hobitbob wrote:
WWII was planned with reconstruction of the axis nations in mind (Yalta Conference). In addition, post war activities by the allies showed tremendous concern for the civillian populations. When one considres the activities of allied forces in recently liberated France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc.. my point is even forther emphasized.
When one considers the considers the activities of US forces in recently liberated Iraq, your point becomes... what point?
hobitbob wrote:
Your ignorance of the historical record is not my problem.
Your lack of ignorance of the historical record demonstrates more clearly your overly biased, purposeful avoidance of obvious fact. You know better; yet argue anyway. Rolling Eyes
hobitbob wrote:
I would bet that the civilans who were killed in each (failed) attmept to kill Hussein by precision guided munitions would beg to differ, as would the chidren who are still being killed and maimed by cluster bomblets.
This often repeated point of yours does nothing to demonstrate a lack of "consideration of innocent human life", as compared to campaigns of the past. Contrarily, your admission that we did use "precision guided munitions", rather than carpet bombing the entire area, proves my point even further.
hobitbob wrote:
NB: I am not saying the Iraq conflict is worse, just not any different!
Which translates to: you can't "provide some evidence of an invasion with more concern for civilians". Which means of course; your distractions have done absolutely nothing to falsify my statements. :wink:
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 03:58 pm
Quote:
When one considers the considers the activities of US forces in recently liberated Iraq, your point becomes... what point?

That the assertion you made:
Quote:
I would state without hesitation that the tactics we used in Iraq are more considerate of innocent human life than any invading Army of the past.

is invalid. The invasion of occupied Europe in WWII showed far greater concern for civillian welfare then the debacle in Iraq, if only because of the existence of a plan for maintaining control, a plan that was conspicuosly absent in Iraq.

Quote:
Your lack of ignorance of the historical record demonstrates more clearly your overly biased, purposeful avoidance of obvious fact. You know better; yet argue anyway.

I'm impressed, I've never been criticized for paying attention to the historical record before, this may be a first! Very Happy Perhaps you should do the same in order to avoid being suckered into comfort with the "obvious," which usually proves to be incorrect.

Quote:
Contrarily, your admission that we did use "precision guided munitions", rather than carpet bombing the entire area, proves my point even further.

Considering the technological advances that have occurred since 1991, I would be surprised had we used any other weapons. The fact remains, however, that the "precision" of these weapons leaves something to be desired. When coupled with poor C3I, these attacks usually ended up doing little more than killing innocents and avoiding harming Hussein or his government officials. I reccomend the recent Frontline program on Iraq:
the Invasion of Iraq

Quote:
Which means of course; your distractions have done absolutely nothing to falsify my statements.

The above is the true attempt at distraction. It failed.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 05:05 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I would state without hesitation that the tactics we used in Iraq are more considerate of innocent human life than any invading Army of the past.

I would bet that the civilans who were killed in each (failed) attmept to kill Hussein by precision guided munitions would beg to differ, as would the chidren who are still being killed and maimed by cluster bomblets.
NB: I am not saying the Iraq conflict is worse, just not any different!

They probably would, but then again, we are talking about percentages, probabilities, kill rates, etc., not anecdotes about individuals. I agree that every human life is very, very important, but on an analytical level, you seem to be asserting that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have employed tactical approaches which produce bystander casualties in some sense greater than in WW2. You have utterly failed to provide any numbers, percentages, other quantitative data, or analysis to support this. Comments about stand-up comedy are mere distractions that do not assist in demonstrating that the numbers were in some sense worse in these two recent conflicts. Don't make the assertion if you can't back it up.
Nothing has changed since Brandon made this post. The irrelevant balance of our argument is too tedious to continue.
0 Replies
 
 

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