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How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?

 
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2018 10:20 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Except that "stick" was burn in hell for eternity. Not nice[ /quote] Thats just your opinion about something you don't even believe in. How do you know heaven is better than hell for everyone?
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2018 10:25 am
@fresco,
Quote:
The irony is the religious claptrap about 'brotherly love' which is the sleight of hand game played by religionists who actually reserve the term 'brother' for 'those who think and do like them
Religionists yes.

True belivers no.

Judgement and vengeance is the Lord's. You are a brother to me. I hope to spend eternity with you in heaven. That is something that will be settled between you and God. I hope to coax or convince you to assimilate into his plan. That is all.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2018 10:33 am
@fresco,
And Joan of Arc is recognized as a Saint by the very church that had her executed. I guess they admitted the decision to execute her was wrong. A lot was learned from her life and death that we can all use when checking our judgement of others. Brother (sorry if I didn't address you with the correct sex)
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2018 12:31 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

A lot was learned from her life and death


Chief being that even with God on their side the French always get their arses kicked.
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2018 01:35 pm
@brianjakub,
Once again, you display your ignorance. The "trial" at Rouen was hopelessly flawed. The bishop who presided, Cauchon, was from Paris and not Rouen, so by the rules of the Office of the Holy Inquisition, he had no right to preside or to convene a court. Of all of the charges and specifications brought against her, the only one he could make stick was opposition to the Church Militant (the church on earth, as opposed to the Church Triumphant, the church in heaven). That was because she wore men's clothing. However, Augustine of Hippo had already decreed, more than a thousand years earlier, that women could wear men's clothing to preserve their chastity. An ignorant and illiterate girl, Jeanne was by no means stupid. In the course of that kangaroo court trial, she made the point that she had worn men's clothing to preserve her chastity. She was a match for Cauchon, too. When he asked her if the Archangel Michael had appeared to her naked, she laughed and asked him if he thought God could not afford to clothe his saints and angels. It was not the church which tried, condemned and executed Jeanne--it was the English and the Burgundians. Of course, the church never executed the condemned, that was always performed by the civil authority.

Twenty-five years later, on appeal, a second tribunal was convened, and in 1456, she was vindicated, and Cauchon (dead by then) was convicted of heresy for trying, condemning and handing over for execution, an innocent woman for a secular purpose and for personal gain. So, in fact, the church was not responsible.

Jeanne was obviously deluded. However, in the 15th century, those who claimed they had heard voices were not considered insane, although they might be thought to have been deceived. The English, of course, claimed she was deceived--and in fact, took it a step further, and said she was the handmaiden of Satan. That sort of propaganda, however, could backfire, and did at les Tourelles. Wounded in the afternoon assault on the Boulevard, Jeanne was carried from the field, with the English jubilant, and the French cast down. But when she returned to the attack shortly thereafter, the French were almost frantic in their assault, and many of the English were convinced that the limb of Satan had come to dance them down to Hell, and so threw down their weapons and attempted to flee, or surrendered.

It is my personal opinion that she was a man born into a woman's body. She demonstrated again and again that she was a canny tactician and she was naturally a great leader of men. Deluded though she may have been, she was effective. That was why she was betrayed to the Burgundians, and why Cauchon, a bishop in Paris, then held by the English, was tapped to conduct the kangaroo court that convicted her.

Although it is largely summary, a good account can be found in Jeanne d'Arc, Régine Pernoud and M.-V. Clin. This has been translated into English, and should be available at any good library. I was able to purchase it about 17 or 18 years ago.

For once, educate yourself rather than pretending to know what you obviously do not know.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jun, 2018 08:33 pm
@izzythepush,
The irony of war is that both sides pray to god for success.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2018 03:18 am
The nub of this issue lies in the understanding that 'self' is a social entity...one in relationship to significant others, and that significance is manifested in family, culture and linguistic behavior which is often has religious connotations. i.e. 'Religious beliefs' tend to function as a self perpetuating node of cultural identity heavily involved with what we call 'self integrity'. The latter factor has obvious psychological advantages especially to individuals[/i ] in sub groups of the species homo sapiens with a concepts of 'fate', 'duty', 'consequences' to worry about. On the other hand, religion as a social cohesion factor operates to protect the 'in group' especially in times of 'strife' as in 'just wars'.
Once more, I repeat that 'evidence issues' have nothing to with the evaluation of 'religion'. In this thread, 'right and wrong' can only be answered in the context of social benefits.
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2018 05:29 am
@fresco,
EDIT
The nub of this issue lies in the understanding that 'self' is a social entity...one in relationship to significant others, and that significance is manifested in family, culture and linguistic behavior which is often has religious connotations. i.e. 'Religious beliefs' tend to function as a self perpetuating node of cultural identity heavily involved with what we call 'self integrity'. The latter factor has obvious psychological advantages especially to individuals in sub groups of the species homo sapiens with a concepts of 'fate', 'duty', 'consequences' to worry about. On the other hand, religion as a social cohesion factor operates to protect the 'in group' especially in times of 'strife' as in 'just wars'.
Once more, I repeat that 'evidence issues' have nothing to with the evaluation of 'religion'. In this thread, 'right and wrong' can only be answered in the context of social benefits.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2018 06:34 am
Wow! Try reading that stoned sometime!
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2018 06:36 am
@Leadfoot,
Twice!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jun, 2018 11:35 am
@fresco,
It creates a level of security for the individual to belong. That's a great force that not many are able to overcome.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 08:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
Great summary.

@Fresco, take lessons in brevity and clarity from CI.
fresco
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 09:38 am
@Leadfoot,
Smile If you think that the 'hold' religious mythology has over large parts of humanity is a simple matter,that would account for that piece of advice.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 10:31 am
@fresco,
No need to increase complexity beyond what is needed.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 12:12 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Jeanne was obviously deluded. However, in the 15th century, those who claimed they had heard voices were not considered insane, although they might be thought to have been deceived.
Quote:
It is my personal opinion that she was a man born into a woman's body.
So you believe in the mind body duality? Or was this another manifestation of her dellusions?

Quote:
Once again, you display your ignorance. The "trial" at Rouen was hopelessly flawed. The bishop who presided, Cauchon, was from Paris and not Rouen, so by the rules of the Office of the Holy Inquisition, he had no right to preside or to convene a court.
Are you saying Cauchon (as a Catholic bishop) didn't preside and that is why I am wrong or
Quote:
It was not the church which tried, condemned and executed Jeanne--it was the English and the Burgundians.
The bishop and the church played no role in her execution?

Is that true for everybody executed during the Inquisition?
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 12:35 pm
@brianjakub,
Cauchon was not the church; he had no authority to convene a court, try Jeanne, condemn her and hand her over to the secular authority for execution. The secular authority being the English, the were eager to execute her.

I've already explained all of this. Either your reading comprehension sucks, or you're just pig-headed.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 12:36 pm
Man, little miss can't be wrong.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 05:19 pm
@Setanta,
All this started with frescos post about religionists. In the end religion is man’s attempt to explain reality and its creator’s plan.

Fortunately the creator entered the universe as Jesus Christand gave us an explanation. It was not recorded pefrctly always but the drift of the message is agreed upon by a lot of people. Fortunately the basic story hasn’t changed as proclaimed by the Catholic Church and we have the Pope and the bishops to settle any arguments.
fresco
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 12:14 am
@Leadfoot,
I agree. Simplistically all religion are wrong because they are in essence socially pernicious. Your own 'faith' merely perpetuates the problem. Evil or Very Mad
fresco
 
  2  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 12:39 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
religion is man’s attempt to explain reality and its creator’s plan.

No. Religion is man's attempt to account for those concepts of 'reality' which they differentially acquire by accident of birth. That 'reality' involves social stratification, regulation, and what it is acceptable 'to believe'. The specific rise of the Catholic Church based on a messiah story was socially and politically expedient to those in power at the time, the pernicious consequences of which (crusades, religious wars, anti-semitism etc) continue to this day (N Ireland for example). Theistic religions are merely one version of factors influencing social reality. Nationalism and authoritarian regimes are others which can be equally socially devisive especially when in combination.
0 Replies
 
 

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